5 ms·

in my humble opinion, you should be happy IBM patented it because clearly they're not patent trolls and it prevents/prevented patent trolls from patenting the

by smoody 18y ago

in my humble opinion, you should be happy IBM patented it because clearly they're not patent trolls and it prevents/prevented patent trolls from patenting the same idea. in big companies, patents are sort-of like trading cards. they're are used defensively. so, if oracle or someone else came after ibm for a database-related patent, IBM could make a patent trade to prevent expensive action from being taken. it's the corporate equivalent of a superpowers' arms race. they're designed to be a deterrent and aren't (often) acquired for first strike purposes.

tyler 18y ago
That seems like a dangerous and foolish proposition to me. Just because IBM doesn't seem like a patent troll today, doesn't mean they won't tomorrow. Not to mention, just like a real arms race... It's not the government officials who are really in danger, it's all of the common people, or in this case, programmers.
- vaksel 18y ago
  if IBM has to resort to being a patent troll we ALL will have other things to worry about
  - irrelative 18y ago
    I completely agree (even up-modded you!), but if you corner a rat, watch out.
- gravitycop 18y ago
  Patents only last 20 years, and besides that every resource is in theory substitutable anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it.
  - asnyder 18y ago
    How would you replace trim? According to the text of the patent any method that removes leading or trailing space would fall under protection of this patent. The only way would be to manually remove spaces character by character every time you ran your query. I definitely don't like the sound of that.
    - gravitycop 18y ago
      How would you replace trim? Why would I need to replace trim? Trim existed before the filing date of the application for patent. The patent does not cover trim. Why would one think that the patent does cover trim? According to the text of the patent any method that removes leading or trailing space would fall under protection of this patent. No, it wouldn't. The 2. Description of Related Art section states: Currently, TRIM functions, available in SQL, are used to remove leading and/or trailing space characters from data being presented to a user. Therefore, merely any method that removes leading or trailing space cannot be what is being claimed in the patent.
jpark 18y ago
Sorry, but IBM is one of the largest patent trolls in the world. You just don't hear about it because they target corporations who don't have an extensive IP portfolio to fight back with and cross license. Here's what's happened at the company I used to work at and what happens at many other companies: 1) IBM comes and says hey you're violating these 10 patents. Pay up. 2) Targeted company goes, hey we're not. Company spends X amount of money and tons of time to prove that they're not violating the patents. 3) IBM goes, oh ok, yeah you're right. So you're not violating those 10 patents. Well, here's another 10 we think you're violating. Now...we can do this forever or you can just pay us $1M/year and have us go away. 4) Targeted company does cost-benefit analysis of legal fees to continue to fight IBM indefinitely or they can pay this "license" fee. Company decides pays $1M to "license" IBM patents oh and postscript, Targeted company wises up and decides to build up its own IP portfolio as a defensive measure and fills the patent system with even more useless patents.
- yason 18y ago
  Big companies win most of the time when there are lawsuits involved. But obviously we can't make enforcing a patent harder as a function of the size of the inventing company. It's a tricky question to ensure "fair" treatment of patent settlements. Clearly patent trolls with silly patents such as the automatic trim()-on-insert should be banished. In fact, I can't think of ever reading about any CS patent that would have actually been useful and truly an idea worth the grant. On the other hand, were there more burden of proof placed on the inventor's side, this would discriminate small inventors in traditional patentable fields (like mechanical or engineering constructions). Big companies could just "steal" their ideas and count on them being unable to enforce the patent. I think the way of the future would be just to give up on the illusion of "intellectual 'property'". Patents don't seem to be incentive when it comes to inventing; instead they seem to incentivise commercialisation. However, all smart people I know would invent new things regardless of any monetary reward or lack thereof.
- yuhong 17y ago
  I wonder if the targeted company did do this forever, how long would it be before IBM runs out of patents? Anyone done the math?
smakz 18y ago
IBM's history has shown they are not afraid to use their patent library offensively. http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/21509.wss http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/21509.wss http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5527642.html http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5527642.html http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE3DF133CF93BA35754C0A960948260 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE3DF133CF... http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/06/ibm-tries-to-stop-asus-imports-over-patent-violations/ http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/06/ibm-tries-to-stop-asus-im... And that was just from a 2 minute Google search. Notice settlements are called "cross licensing" but only have money going in one direction - towards IBM.

by smoody 18y ago

tyler 18y ago

That seems like a dangerous and foolish proposition to me. Just because IBM doesn't seem like a patent troll today, doesn't mean they won't tomorrow. Not to mention, just like a real arms race... It's not the government officials who are really in danger, it's all of the common people, or in this case, programmers.

vaksel 18y ago
if IBM has to resort to being a patent troll we ALL will have other things to worry about
- irrelative 18y ago
  I completely agree (even up-modded you!), but if you corner a rat, watch out.
gravitycop 18y ago
Patents only last 20 years, and besides that every resource is in theory substitutable anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it.
- asnyder 18y ago
  How would you replace trim? According to the text of the patent any method that removes leading or trailing space would fall under protection of this patent. The only way would be to manually remove spaces character by character every time you ran your query. I definitely don't like the sound of that.
  - gravitycop 18y ago
    How would you replace trim? Why would I need to replace trim? Trim existed before the filing date of the application for patent. The patent does not cover trim. Why would one think that the patent does cover trim? According to the text of the patent any method that removes leading or trailing space would fall under protection of this patent. No, it wouldn't. The 2. Description of Related Art section states: Currently, TRIM functions, available in SQL, are used to remove leading and/or trailing space characters from data being presented to a user. Therefore, merely any method that removes leading or trailing space cannot be what is being claimed in the patent.

jpark 18y ago

Sorry, but IBM is one of the largest patent trolls in the world. You just don't hear about it because they target corporations who don't have an extensive IP portfolio to fight back with and cross license. Here's what's happened at the company I used to work at and what happens at many other companies: 1) IBM comes and says hey you're violating these 10 patents. Pay up. 2) Targeted company goes, hey we're not. Company spends X amount of money and tons of time to prove that they're not violating the patents. 3) IBM goes, oh ok, yeah you're right. So you're not violating those 10 patents. Well, here's another 10 we think you're violating. Now...we can do this forever or you can just pay us $1M/year and have us go away. 4) Targeted company does cost-benefit analysis of legal fees to continue to fight IBM indefinitely or they can pay this "license" fee. Company decides pays $1M to "license" IBM patents oh and postscript, Targeted company wises up and decides to build up its own IP portfolio as a defensive measure and fills the patent system with even more useless patents.

yason 18y ago
Big companies win most of the time when there are lawsuits involved. But obviously we can't make enforcing a patent harder as a function of the size of the inventing company. It's a tricky question to ensure "fair" treatment of patent settlements. Clearly patent trolls with silly patents such as the automatic trim()-on-insert should be banished. In fact, I can't think of ever reading about any CS patent that would have actually been useful and truly an idea worth the grant. On the other hand, were there more burden of proof placed on the inventor's side, this would discriminate small inventors in traditional patentable fields (like mechanical or engineering constructions). Big companies could just "steal" their ideas and count on them being unable to enforce the patent. I think the way of the future would be just to give up on the illusion of "intellectual 'property'". Patents don't seem to be incentive when it comes to inventing; instead they seem to incentivise commercialisation. However, all smart people I know would invent new things regardless of any monetary reward or lack thereof.
yuhong 17y ago
I wonder if the targeted company did do this forever, how long would it be before IBM runs out of patents? Anyone done the math?

smakz 18y ago

IBM's history has shown they are not afraid to use their patent library offensively. http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/21509.wss http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/21509.wss http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5527642.html http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5527642.html http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE3DF133CF93BA35754C0A960948260 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE3DF133CF... http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/06/ibm-tries-to-stop-asus-imports-over-patent-violations/ http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/06/ibm-tries-to-stop-asus-im... And that was just from a 2 minute Google search. Notice settlements are called "cross licensing" but only have money going in one direction - towards IBM.