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Honestly curious: What does this mean? I'll expand a bit on my perspective to avoid just sealioning here: Where I've come across proposals for policies like a

Honestly curious: What does this mean? I'll expand a bit on my perspective to avoid just sealioning here: Where I've come across proposals for policies like actual age verification is in the "social media is bad for kids" milieu. I'm extremely skeptical that these proposals are workable purely technically, but ignoring that, I have some sympathy for the concept. I do think that kids mainlining TikTok and YouTube Shorts and PornHub is really bad. So having cleared my throat, I'm back to wondering about your comment. How, in your view, is this kind of policy "protecting parents at the expense of children"?

bobthepanda 2y ago
I mean there are many reasons that people say that TikTok is bad. If you think TikTok is bad because it promotes unhelpful or malicious advice around body standards, that's one thing. (See: bigorexia getting promoted into the DSM) If you think TikTok is bad because it puts children under a lens, that's another thing. If you think TikTok is bad because it exposes contrarian viewpoints that are not available on your television, like, say, something Gaza related, then that's yet another thing.
- econ 2y ago
  The worse part of tiktok, like much of the web, is that it clips up your attention span into such tiny chunks that the consumer can NEVER feel the joy of thinking or talking. You can never voyage into someone else's mind deep enough to bee truly terrified or blown away, never see how they are fundamentally different from you nor why. All other complaints are a mere distraction by comparison.
- sanderjd 2y ago
  This seems like a bit of a non-sequitur, but you also correctly guessed that I think TikTok is bad. But I don't relate to any of the reasons you listed. I think TikTok is bad for two reasons: 1. It is controlled by the government of China, and I don't trust them to avoid influencing Americans with propaganda. 2. It is bad in the same ways as all other social media.
  - roenxi 2y ago
    Your #1 reason is bobthepanda's #3 reason - exposes contrarian viewpoints. There isn't any reason in the abstract to think that Chinese propaganda is any worse than US propaganda. US propaganda is pretty stupid vis a vis promoting domestic prosperity. What are the Chinese supposed to do here, influence the US to give up their manufacturing edge by outsourcing all the capital formation to Asia? Waste their economic surpluses on endless war? Promote political division by pretending that the president is an agent of a foreign country? The US political process throws up a startling number of own goals. The Chinese aren't savvy enough to outdo the US domestic efforts.
    - XorNot 2y ago
      This is a naive view of propaganda: everyone always says "well, they're not trying to achieve <overtly obvious goal>" therefore there could be no benefit! Propaganda aimed at your enemies isn't about achieving any specific goal, it is about obtaining potential advantage. It's an investment, the same as funding a startup but with much broader success criteria. Your comment here belies the benefit because at its core is the most dangerous assumption: I am too smart to affected by propaganda.
      - roenxi 2y ago
        Well, no. It is good to listen to other people even if you think they don't have your best interests at heart. I can certainly see a security argument for restricting foreign media, but to get upset because literally one media source is owned by foreigners is too much. The vague "obtaining potential advantage" is unreasonable. An advantage at what? China doesn't benefit from the US suffering, much like the US has actually benefited a huge amount from Chinese prosperity. > Your comment here belies the benefit because at its core is the most dangerous assumption: I am too smart to affected by propaganda. Quite the contrary; We're supposed to be affected by what we listen to. But I'm not smart enough to figure out what the Chinese think without going and listening to and reading things written by Chinese people and pushed by people with Chinese perspectives. We're not psychic and the Western media are also unreliable. Listening to diverse news sources is important. Particularly since the truth is often the most effective form of propaganda.
- jakewins 2y ago
  My brother, a middle school teacher, was talking about TikTok yesterday. Every 2 years he gets a new batch of 10-year-olds. They all have a “class chat”, and it is used daily for relentless cyber bullying. The current trend TikTok is pushing this month is to push the boundaries of calling black kids the n-word without explicitly saying the word. There is one little black girl in his class. He says every class is the same, horror ideas pushed by edge lords TikTok algos push on the kids. Relentless daily bullying. And unlike bullying on the playground or at the boys and girls club.. there is no realistic way for adults to intercede beyond disconnecting their kid, shutting them out of the social context entirely.
  - squigz 2y ago
    As someone who was bullied despite adults interceding, I'm curious why you think it being physical makes it better? Interestingly the exact example you gave is something I can see happening when I was a kid as well as now. Bullies gunna bully.
    - jakewins 2y ago
      My primary issue here was actually more about TikTok - I don’t think it’s right that software engineers get rich writing code that pushes “bullying challenges” on children to increase engagement and ad sales. But: all other things equal, of I get to pick between “10-year-olds primary daily public forum is completely, cryptographically, devoid of any moderating adult presence whatsoever” and - what I had - 10-year olds have privacy but there are adults around that have a chance at picking up that things are going off the rails”
  - achenet 2y ago
    sorry if this is a stupid question, but can your brother setup a class chat that he moderates? I'm working on a simple chat app in Go as a learning project [0], you're welcome to use that, but honestly there are almost certainly better solutions out there, which he can actively moderate. Maybe a WhatsApp group, or something that can be used by a web interface (old forum techs?) Group chats can be nice, I'm part of several acroyoga group chats and they're lovely, probably because adults who practice acroyoga tend to be nicer than middle schoolers. [0] https://codeberg.org/achenet/go-chat https://codeberg.org/achenet/go-chat
- 47282847 2y ago
  I think it’s mostly bad for a developing brain because it fuels dopamine-driven short attention span and on that level alone is comparable to zoning out on drugs. It is basically child maltreatment in the form of neglect, first parent-child-neglect, continued into self-neglect. Neglect as a silent form of abuse is one of the most damaging and difficult to treat in psychotherapy.
aught 2y ago
If you have a hyperlexic child but the parents are not, nor are they well educated, most of the books quite early are going to male the parents uncomfortable. Even with educated parents, you get well meaning protective measures which are harmful to the child in the short and long term. Children even who arent big readers are harmed when their questions are deflected or ignored. Especially when it starts young. When your answers or you are uncomfortable towards an intelligent childs questions, especially as their parent, they pick up on that. You may intend well, you may want to shield them from the horrors inherent in their question, or prevent anxiety. But they still have the questions, they just find the answers themselves. They stop asking you for many reasons. Ultimately the result is you have left them alone with their questjons, and for bright children particularly the very young it does so much damage, that continues. They've in a very real way, been left alone by even very devoted parents.

bobthepanda 2y ago

I mean there are many reasons that people say that TikTok is bad. If you think TikTok is bad because it promotes unhelpful or malicious advice around body standards, that's one thing. (See: bigorexia getting promoted into the DSM) If you think TikTok is bad because it puts children under a lens, that's another thing. If you think TikTok is bad because it exposes contrarian viewpoints that are not available on your television, like, say, something Gaza related, then that's yet another thing.

econ 2y ago
The worse part of tiktok, like much of the web, is that it clips up your attention span into such tiny chunks that the consumer can NEVER feel the joy of thinking or talking. You can never voyage into someone else's mind deep enough to bee truly terrified or blown away, never see how they are fundamentally different from you nor why. All other complaints are a mere distraction by comparison.
sanderjd 2y ago
This seems like a bit of a non-sequitur, but you also correctly guessed that I think TikTok is bad. But I don't relate to any of the reasons you listed. I think TikTok is bad for two reasons: 1. It is controlled by the government of China, and I don't trust them to avoid influencing Americans with propaganda. 2. It is bad in the same ways as all other social media.
- roenxi 2y ago
  Your #1 reason is bobthepanda's #3 reason - exposes contrarian viewpoints. There isn't any reason in the abstract to think that Chinese propaganda is any worse than US propaganda. US propaganda is pretty stupid vis a vis promoting domestic prosperity. What are the Chinese supposed to do here, influence the US to give up their manufacturing edge by outsourcing all the capital formation to Asia? Waste their economic surpluses on endless war? Promote political division by pretending that the president is an agent of a foreign country? The US political process throws up a startling number of own goals. The Chinese aren't savvy enough to outdo the US domestic efforts.
  - XorNot 2y ago
    This is a naive view of propaganda: everyone always says "well, they're not trying to achieve <overtly obvious goal>" therefore there could be no benefit! Propaganda aimed at your enemies isn't about achieving any specific goal, it is about obtaining potential advantage. It's an investment, the same as funding a startup but with much broader success criteria. Your comment here belies the benefit because at its core is the most dangerous assumption: I am too smart to affected by propaganda.
    - roenxi 2y ago
      Well, no. It is good to listen to other people even if you think they don't have your best interests at heart. I can certainly see a security argument for restricting foreign media, but to get upset because literally one media source is owned by foreigners is too much. The vague "obtaining potential advantage" is unreasonable. An advantage at what? China doesn't benefit from the US suffering, much like the US has actually benefited a huge amount from Chinese prosperity. > Your comment here belies the benefit because at its core is the most dangerous assumption: I am too smart to affected by propaganda. Quite the contrary; We're supposed to be affected by what we listen to. But I'm not smart enough to figure out what the Chinese think without going and listening to and reading things written by Chinese people and pushed by people with Chinese perspectives. We're not psychic and the Western media are also unreliable. Listening to diverse news sources is important. Particularly since the truth is often the most effective form of propaganda.
jakewins 2y ago
My brother, a middle school teacher, was talking about TikTok yesterday. Every 2 years he gets a new batch of 10-year-olds. They all have a “class chat”, and it is used daily for relentless cyber bullying. The current trend TikTok is pushing this month is to push the boundaries of calling black kids the n-word without explicitly saying the word. There is one little black girl in his class. He says every class is the same, horror ideas pushed by edge lords TikTok algos push on the kids. Relentless daily bullying. And unlike bullying on the playground or at the boys and girls club.. there is no realistic way for adults to intercede beyond disconnecting their kid, shutting them out of the social context entirely.
- squigz 2y ago
  As someone who was bullied despite adults interceding, I'm curious why you think it being physical makes it better? Interestingly the exact example you gave is something I can see happening when I was a kid as well as now. Bullies gunna bully.
  - jakewins 2y ago
    My primary issue here was actually more about TikTok - I don’t think it’s right that software engineers get rich writing code that pushes “bullying challenges” on children to increase engagement and ad sales. But: all other things equal, of I get to pick between “10-year-olds primary daily public forum is completely, cryptographically, devoid of any moderating adult presence whatsoever” and - what I had - 10-year olds have privacy but there are adults around that have a chance at picking up that things are going off the rails”
- achenet 2y ago
  sorry if this is a stupid question, but can your brother setup a class chat that he moderates? I'm working on a simple chat app in Go as a learning project [0], you're welcome to use that, but honestly there are almost certainly better solutions out there, which he can actively moderate. Maybe a WhatsApp group, or something that can be used by a web interface (old forum techs?) Group chats can be nice, I'm part of several acroyoga group chats and they're lovely, probably because adults who practice acroyoga tend to be nicer than middle schoolers. [0] https://codeberg.org/achenet/go-chat https://codeberg.org/achenet/go-chat
47282847 2y ago
I think it’s mostly bad for a developing brain because it fuels dopamine-driven short attention span and on that level alone is comparable to zoning out on drugs. It is basically child maltreatment in the form of neglect, first parent-child-neglect, continued into self-neglect. Neglect as a silent form of abuse is one of the most damaging and difficult to treat in psychotherapy.

aught 2y ago

If you have a hyperlexic child but the parents are not, nor are they well educated, most of the books quite early are going to male the parents uncomfortable. Even with educated parents, you get well meaning protective measures which are harmful to the child in the short and long term. Children even who arent big readers are harmed when their questions are deflected or ignored. Especially when it starts young. When your answers or you are uncomfortable towards an intelligent childs questions, especially as their parent, they pick up on that. You may intend well, you may want to shield them from the horrors inherent in their question, or prevent anxiety. But they still have the questions, they just find the answers themselves. They stop asking you for many reasons. Ultimately the result is you have left them alone with their questjons, and for bright children particularly the very young it does so much damage, that continues. They've in a very real way, been left alone by even very devoted parents.