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This still doesn't successfully counter the statement that C is the best language to start with. I'm biased since C is my first language. Do you recommend anot

This still doesn't successfully counter the statement that C is the best language to start with. I'm biased since C is my first language. Do you recommend another better suited for the purpose?

dag11 14y ago
My first language was Javascript/Actionscript and then later Java. It wasn't until after that that I learned C and C++. But I agree that C should be one of the first languages learned.
Someone 14y ago
I would recommend almost anything with an interactive shell over a traditional C environment. Python and irb are nice starting points because you can start out by claiming they are just a calculator, where you have to press return instead of =. From there, you can go to variables (prevent you from having to type, e.g. the gravitational constant or a VAT percentage over and over), then to looping (print multiplication tables), to arrays (store them for later use, or as input for a loop to print year lengths for the planets, computed from their distance to the sun), and then to functions. And all of that without having to teach people the difference between source, object code, and executable.
- green7ea 14y ago
  I agree that this is the case for casual programming. If you are teaching someone who has hardware experience (electrical engineer, etc), it is sometimes easier to build from the bottom up and C is as low as it goes without being assembly (a good and a bad thing).
  - jules 14y ago
    For the low level stuff an assembly language is way better than C. C is still a LOT of magic that you won't be able to fully understand without understanding how the machine and the compiler works. In assembly a line corresponds to one instruction. What the assembler is doing is translating each line to an instruction number that the machine can interpret. That is a whole lot less magic than what happens in C. In addition, pointers are much easier to understand from a machine perspective than from a C perspective: they are just numbers indicating a location in memory. C makes that far too complicated with different data types, pointers to local variables (and higher up the call stack), confusing pointer declaration syntax, etc. You can learn C syntax for assembly language idioms later. Starting out by learning the concepts plus the syntax at the same time leads to inefficient learning because when you're learning concepts like pointers it doesn't help to have to learn confusing stuff and syntax at the same time. This does not apply to languages that cleanly abstract the machine like Scheme/Python/Haskell/what have you, but C lets the low level stuff shine through so much that you end up having to learn that anyway; you can't really learn it as an abstraction.
derleth 14y ago
> This still doesn't successfully counter the statement that C is the best language to start with. I wasn't actually trying to refute that statement above; I was responding to the specific arguments used to support it. Anyway, I agree with the other poster who replied to you: Pick a language with a REPL, as instant reinforcement of concepts is essential to ingraining them into the mind. Having a longer turnaround time means the lesson gets diluted by being interleaved with too much process (save the file, build the program, run it, look at the output, consider it, etc.).
- jlgreco 14y ago
  I don't understand how your comment is a refutation of the assertion that C will teach you more about the machine than other languages. Which language would you recommend using if you want to learn more about the machine?
  - derleth 14y ago
    > I don't understand how your comment is a refutation of the assertion that C will teach you more about the machine than other languages. It completely hides some of the most important aspects of any modern hardware from you. The only thing it really exposes you to is manual memory management, and even then the view of memory C gives you is grossly simplified compared to how memory actually works on any modern hardware. > Which language would you recommend using if you want to learn more about the machine? Pick a machine and learn that machine's assembly language.
    - jlgreco 14y ago
      He specifically called out assembly as obviously better in this respect than C...

This still doesn't successfully counter the statement that C is the best language to start with. I'm biased since C is my first language. Do you recommend another better suited for the purpose?

dag11 14y ago

My first language was Javascript/Actionscript and then later Java. It wasn't until after that that I learned C and C++. But I agree that C should be one of the first languages learned.

Someone 14y ago

I would recommend almost anything with an interactive shell over a traditional C environment. Python and irb are nice starting points because you can start out by claiming they are just a calculator, where you have to press return instead of =. From there, you can go to variables (prevent you from having to type, e.g. the gravitational constant or a VAT percentage over and over), then to looping (print multiplication tables), to arrays (store them for later use, or as input for a loop to print year lengths for the planets, computed from their distance to the sun), and then to functions. And all of that without having to teach people the difference between source, object code, and executable.

green7ea 14y ago
I agree that this is the case for casual programming. If you are teaching someone who has hardware experience (electrical engineer, etc), it is sometimes easier to build from the bottom up and C is as low as it goes without being assembly (a good and a bad thing).
- jules 14y ago
  For the low level stuff an assembly language is way better than C. C is still a LOT of magic that you won't be able to fully understand without understanding how the machine and the compiler works. In assembly a line corresponds to one instruction. What the assembler is doing is translating each line to an instruction number that the machine can interpret. That is a whole lot less magic than what happens in C. In addition, pointers are much easier to understand from a machine perspective than from a C perspective: they are just numbers indicating a location in memory. C makes that far too complicated with different data types, pointers to local variables (and higher up the call stack), confusing pointer declaration syntax, etc. You can learn C syntax for assembly language idioms later. Starting out by learning the concepts plus the syntax at the same time leads to inefficient learning because when you're learning concepts like pointers it doesn't help to have to learn confusing stuff and syntax at the same time. This does not apply to languages that cleanly abstract the machine like Scheme/Python/Haskell/what have you, but C lets the low level stuff shine through so much that you end up having to learn that anyway; you can't really learn it as an abstraction.

derleth 14y ago

> This still doesn't successfully counter the statement that C is the best language to start with. I wasn't actually trying to refute that statement above; I was responding to the specific arguments used to support it. Anyway, I agree with the other poster who replied to you: Pick a language with a REPL, as instant reinforcement of concepts is essential to ingraining them into the mind. Having a longer turnaround time means the lesson gets diluted by being interleaved with too much process (save the file, build the program, run it, look at the output, consider it, etc.).

jlgreco 14y ago
I don't understand how your comment is a refutation of the assertion that C will teach you more about the machine than other languages. Which language would you recommend using if you want to learn more about the machine?
- derleth 14y ago
  > I don't understand how your comment is a refutation of the assertion that C will teach you more about the machine than other languages. It completely hides some of the most important aspects of any modern hardware from you. The only thing it really exposes you to is manual memory management, and even then the view of memory C gives you is grossly simplified compared to how memory actually works on any modern hardware. > Which language would you recommend using if you want to learn more about the machine? Pick a machine and learn that machine's assembly language.
  - jlgreco 14y ago
    He specifically called out assembly as obviously better in this respect than C...