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> The law makes it a misdemeanor for undocumented immigrants over age 18 to “knowingly” enter Florida “after entering the United States by eluding or avoiding e

> The law makes it a misdemeanor for undocumented immigrants over age 18 to “knowingly” enter Florida “after entering the United States by eluding or avoiding examination or inspection by immigration officers.” A good reminder that over 60% of "undocumented immigrants" in the US are here because they overstayed Visas (more likely their Visa extensions were denied). NOT because they entered the country illegally. However, the enforcement of these laws is following the "guilty until proven innocent" logic. Arrest people who look hispanic and deny them basic legal rights until they prove their citizenship. The fact that citizens are caught up in this should not be a surprise since we are witnessing the fall of due process.

willcipriano 2y ago
That 60% figure would have to depend on a unknown denominator so I dont understand how it would be said so authoritatively. 60% of known undocumented immigrants is the best it could be.
koolba 2y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > Are you expecting a perfect system that would never even accost an innocent man? I'd, at the very least, expect the system to rapidly right the clear wrong when confronted with strong evidence. > If you don’t want to be mistaken for an illegal alien, how about not riding around with them? My First Amendment rights include the right to associate with non-citizens. Am I supposed to demand my friends' citizenship paperwork before going out to dinner? Come the fuck on. > And once the authorities were presented with his documents he was released. No, he wasn't. "However, the state prosecutor insisted the court lacked jurisdiction over Lopez-Gomez’s release because U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement had formally asked the jail to hold him. “This court does not have any jurisdiction other than what I’ve already done,” [Judge] Riggans said."
  - koolba 2y ago
    > My First Amendment rights include the right to associate with non-citizens. > Am I supposed to demand my friends' citizenship paperwork before going out to dinner? Come the fuck on. I have the right to go hang out with some drug dealers standing on a street corner too. But I can hardly complain if I get caught up in a sting.
    - runako 2y ago
      This train of logic rests heavily on the notion that one can look at a person and determine their citizenship.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      > But I can hardly complain if I get caught up in a sting. You absolutely can, if there was no probable cause for your detention. Doubly so if you've presented your proof to a court and still can't get out of jail.
    - legitster 2y ago
      If one of your friends gets arrested for white collar crime, should you be thrown in jail for a few days too? This is a ridiculous line of reasoning.
      - koolba 2y ago
        > If one of your friends gets arrested for white collar crime, should you be thrown in jail for a few days too? In that version you’re in the conference room as the white collar crime is happening, when the Feds come in to arrest everybody.
        BobaFloutist 2y ago
        But instead of the crime being an action, it's an identity, so it's necessarily happening at all times.
        2y ago
- wormlord 2y ago
  > Are you expecting a perfect system that would never even accost an innocent man? Or do you suggest we just give up and eliminate all such enforcement? Eliminate all enforcement. You realize that it is (or was) legal to walk into the United States and claim asylum. At that point you have a legal right to reside until the US immigration system decides you need to leave. The alternative is Visa expirations. The US labor system is designed so that asylum seekers and people on expired Visa's exist in limbo, so that this exact kind of violent force can be used against them to create a hyper-exploited labor class. The solution is either 1. Close up the border entirely (inhumane and also not beneficial to capitalists) 2. Actually process immigrants instead of keeping them in limbo. The US benefits from the ambiguity and terror it can inflict on your fellow human beings. I personally don't give a fuck about the law, so that's my bias, but I find it absurd that there are people who still believe that there is some legal basis to be followed, when this administration has already dropped habeas corpus. You value the rules created by the rich and powerful (your class enemies) more than the lives of your fellow humans-- you are truly a fool and I hope you can wake up soon.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
belorn 2y ago
I have seen multiple people bring up the distinction of overstayed Visas, but I don't understand the significance of it. A travel visa is a conditional authorization to a foreigner that allows them to enter and remain within a country. It is just as important during entering as staying. The Florida only talks about entering so I can understand the distinction there. Should people without a valid visa not be considered as illegal immigration?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- SauciestGNU 2y ago
  Overstaying is a civil infraction according to current law while illegal entry is a misdemeanor. The distinction is that overstaying a visa is not a crime, so they are not "criminal illegal aliens", despite it being convenient for the administration to claim so.
  - belorn 2y ago
    Interesting to learn a bit about US law. I did not know that things like traffic violations did not count as a crime. It make some sense that crime is that which carries the risk of jail, while everything else is then a civil infraction. Since overstayed visa only can result in fines, deportation, and bans/restrictions from future visiting of the US, it would then count as a civil infraction. Naturally, it is still illegal to break the law, even if the law do not carry the risk of jail time, so the correct name would be illegal immigration when overstaying a visa. Is resisting deportation a crime similar to resisting arrest, which then carry the risk of jail time?
- ModernMech 2y ago
  > Should people without a valid visa not be considered as illegal immigration? Yes. But the problem is the rhetoric today is that being an "illegal immigrant" is tantamount to being a rapist, gang member, murderer, or drug dealer. Therefore people feel justified in depriving them of their rights. Which of course is a very bad thing, but some people feel intuitively that criminals deserve no rights whatsoever to due process. People are now conflating providing due process to illegal immigrants with supporting rape and murder. So that's why it's very important to point out that when someone is as "illegal immigrant" the image you should not have in your mind is a gangbanger.

willcipriano 2y ago

That 60% figure would have to depend on a unknown denominator so I dont understand how it would be said so authoritatively. 60% of known undocumented immigrants is the best it could be.

koolba 2y ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 2y ago
> Are you expecting a perfect system that would never even accost an innocent man? I'd, at the very least, expect the system to rapidly right the clear wrong when confronted with strong evidence. > If you don’t want to be mistaken for an illegal alien, how about not riding around with them? My First Amendment rights include the right to associate with non-citizens. Am I supposed to demand my friends' citizenship paperwork before going out to dinner? Come the fuck on. > And once the authorities were presented with his documents he was released. No, he wasn't. "However, the state prosecutor insisted the court lacked jurisdiction over Lopez-Gomez’s release because U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement had formally asked the jail to hold him. “This court does not have any jurisdiction other than what I’ve already done,” [Judge] Riggans said."
- koolba 2y ago
  > My First Amendment rights include the right to associate with non-citizens. > Am I supposed to demand my friends' citizenship paperwork before going out to dinner? Come the fuck on. I have the right to go hang out with some drug dealers standing on a street corner too. But I can hardly complain if I get caught up in a sting.
  - runako 2y ago
    This train of logic rests heavily on the notion that one can look at a person and determine their citizenship.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > But I can hardly complain if I get caught up in a sting. You absolutely can, if there was no probable cause for your detention. Doubly so if you've presented your proof to a court and still can't get out of jail.
  - legitster 2y ago
    If one of your friends gets arrested for white collar crime, should you be thrown in jail for a few days too? This is a ridiculous line of reasoning.
    - koolba 2y ago
      > If one of your friends gets arrested for white collar crime, should you be thrown in jail for a few days too? In that version you’re in the conference room as the white collar crime is happening, when the Feds come in to arrest everybody.
      - BobaFloutist 2y ago
        But instead of the crime being an action, it's an identity, so it's necessarily happening at all times.
        2y ago
wormlord 2y ago
> Are you expecting a perfect system that would never even accost an innocent man? Or do you suggest we just give up and eliminate all such enforcement? Eliminate all enforcement. You realize that it is (or was) legal to walk into the United States and claim asylum. At that point you have a legal right to reside until the US immigration system decides you need to leave. The alternative is Visa expirations. The US labor system is designed so that asylum seekers and people on expired Visa's exist in limbo, so that this exact kind of violent force can be used against them to create a hyper-exploited labor class. The solution is either 1. Close up the border entirely (inhumane and also not beneficial to capitalists) 2. Actually process immigrants instead of keeping them in limbo. The US benefits from the ambiguity and terror it can inflict on your fellow human beings. I personally don't give a fuck about the law, so that's my bias, but I find it absurd that there are people who still believe that there is some legal basis to be followed, when this administration has already dropped habeas corpus. You value the rules created by the rich and powerful (your class enemies) more than the lives of your fellow humans-- you are truly a fool and I hope you can wake up soon.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

belorn 2y ago

I have seen multiple people bring up the distinction of overstayed Visas, but I don't understand the significance of it. A travel visa is a conditional authorization to a foreigner that allows them to enter and remain within a country. It is just as important during entering as staying. The Florida only talks about entering so I can understand the distinction there. Should people without a valid visa not be considered as illegal immigration?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
SauciestGNU 2y ago
Overstaying is a civil infraction according to current law while illegal entry is a misdemeanor. The distinction is that overstaying a visa is not a crime, so they are not "criminal illegal aliens", despite it being convenient for the administration to claim so.
- belorn 2y ago
  Interesting to learn a bit about US law. I did not know that things like traffic violations did not count as a crime. It make some sense that crime is that which carries the risk of jail, while everything else is then a civil infraction. Since overstayed visa only can result in fines, deportation, and bans/restrictions from future visiting of the US, it would then count as a civil infraction. Naturally, it is still illegal to break the law, even if the law do not carry the risk of jail time, so the correct name would be illegal immigration when overstaying a visa. Is resisting deportation a crime similar to resisting arrest, which then carry the risk of jail time?
ModernMech 2y ago
> Should people without a valid visa not be considered as illegal immigration? Yes. But the problem is the rhetoric today is that being an "illegal immigrant" is tantamount to being a rapist, gang member, murderer, or drug dealer. Therefore people feel justified in depriving them of their rights. Which of course is a very bad thing, but some people feel intuitively that criminals deserve no rights whatsoever to due process. People are now conflating providing due process to illegal immigrants with supporting rape and murder. So that's why it's very important to point out that when someone is as "illegal immigrant" the image you should not have in your mind is a gangbanger.