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Though that also comes with male-pattern skeletal growth. So unless your body still has elevated/male-level T levels, you're carrying around a disproportionatel

Though that also comes with male-pattern skeletal growth. So unless your body still has elevated/male-level T levels, you're carrying around a disproportionately heavy skeleton which negates the advantage. If the net effect were actually an advantage, you'd expect the womens' sports which are allowing trans women to be dominated by them, but they really just aren't. Additionally, trans women on HRT typically have their T suppressed below standard cis women levels, and thus well below the levels of cis women athletes (the top levels in any sport by definition tending to be outliers in performance).

loeg 2y ago
> Though that also comes with male-pattern skeletal growth. So unless your body still has elevated/male-level T levels, you're carrying around a disproportionately heavy skeleton which negates the advantage. The male-pattern skeletal growth isn't necessarily a disadvantage. E.g., narrower hips and stronger bones is likely an advantage in running. > If the net effect were actually an advantage, you'd expect the womens' sports which are allowing trans women to be dominated by them, but they really just aren't. My understanding is the opposite. In fact, if it wasn't the case, there is basically no reason to have separate mens and womens fields.
- delecti 2y ago
  > The male-pattern skeletal growth isn't necessarily a disadvantage. E.g., narrower hips and stronger bones is likely an advantage in running. It might or might not help, but if it were a net benefit then you'd expect trans women runners to perform more strongly than they actually do. > My understanding is the opposite. In fact, if it wasn't the case, there is basically no reason to have separate mens and womens fields. This sentence seems to presuppose that trans women are men. There are some womens' divisions which allow trans women (typically with stipulations requiring some duration of HRT), and they are not dominant there. To me, the sensible conclusion seems to be that trans women perform roughly on par with cis women, not that cis women perform roughly on par with cis men.
  - loeg 2y ago
    My last sentence wasn't particularly coherent; sorry. I have sort of two ideas here that were merged poorly: (1) setting aside trans entirely, cismen enjoy significant sport advantages over ciswomen in most sports, and this (fairness) is basically why we have women's sports instead of combined fields. (2) I believe transwomen have outsized performance in women's sports (contra your claim of no outperformance). > There are some womens' divisions which allow trans women (typically with stipulations requiring some duration of HRT), and they are not dominant there. I think there are maybe two things I'd poke at here. (1) Sports where transwomen enjoy greater advantage are more likely to have already excluded transwomen from womens' fields. And (2) the number of transwomen is tiny to begin with and AFAIK they have lower rates of participation in sports than ciswomen. I think you can basically make a case for including or excluding transwomen in women's sports depending on whether you think inclusion or fairness is most important.
    - delecti 2y ago
      > I think you can basically make a case for including or excluding transwomen in women's sports depending on whether you think inclusion or fairness is most important. A pretty wide spread of sports have allowed trans women*, and they have not dominated. If trans women did have an outsized performance in women's sports, there'd be examples to point to. I don't think you can make an evidence-based case for fairness and inclusion being at odds, given there aren't any unfair examples of inclusion to point to. Some of the most notable examples include weightlifting and swimming. In weightlifting, probably the sport I'd expect an unfair advantage to make itself most apparent, Laurel Hubbard got a DNF in the Olympics, and did merely pretty good in several other events. Or in swimming, another sport I'd expect body proportions to have a significant impact in, Lia Thomas, who was the center of a ton of controversy, also did merely fine. I'm not sure there are sports where trans women would have a bigger advantage than weightlifting, if such an advantage existed. And the tiny number of trans women interested in sports means that erring on the side of inclusion (if it does turn out to be an error) would also have a tiny negative impact, * - Pedantic side note, combining "transwomen" and "ciswomen" into single words implies that we're different base nouns. It's similar to how "chinamen" is not acceptable, but generally there's nothing wrong with "Chinese men". "Trans" and "cis" are just adjectives modifying "men" or "women".
- sapphicsnail 2y ago
  This is anecdotal evidence but I'm a trans woman who transitioned at 30. I ran cross country and track and was the fastest kid at my school in a relatively competitive program. I got depressed after college and gained a bunch of weight and only ran sporadically. I started HRT, I keep my T levels in the lowest range that's healthy for cis women. I got the urge to start exercising again. I now run more than twice as much as before, lost 40 pounds, and do roller derby on top of that. I'm still not as fast as I was when I was mostly sedentary, drinking beers every night in my apartment. I don't know if I'm faster or slower than I would have been if I was a cis woman but I did take a pretty big hit.

loeg 2y ago

> Though that also comes with male-pattern skeletal growth. So unless your body still has elevated/male-level T levels, you're carrying around a disproportionately heavy skeleton which negates the advantage. The male-pattern skeletal growth isn't necessarily a disadvantage. E.g., narrower hips and stronger bones is likely an advantage in running. > If the net effect were actually an advantage, you'd expect the womens' sports which are allowing trans women to be dominated by them, but they really just aren't. My understanding is the opposite. In fact, if it wasn't the case, there is basically no reason to have separate mens and womens fields.

delecti 2y ago
> The male-pattern skeletal growth isn't necessarily a disadvantage. E.g., narrower hips and stronger bones is likely an advantage in running. It might or might not help, but if it were a net benefit then you'd expect trans women runners to perform more strongly than they actually do. > My understanding is the opposite. In fact, if it wasn't the case, there is basically no reason to have separate mens and womens fields. This sentence seems to presuppose that trans women are men. There are some womens' divisions which allow trans women (typically with stipulations requiring some duration of HRT), and they are not dominant there. To me, the sensible conclusion seems to be that trans women perform roughly on par with cis women, not that cis women perform roughly on par with cis men.
- loeg 2y ago
  My last sentence wasn't particularly coherent; sorry. I have sort of two ideas here that were merged poorly: (1) setting aside trans entirely, cismen enjoy significant sport advantages over ciswomen in most sports, and this (fairness) is basically why we have women's sports instead of combined fields. (2) I believe transwomen have outsized performance in women's sports (contra your claim of no outperformance). > There are some womens' divisions which allow trans women (typically with stipulations requiring some duration of HRT), and they are not dominant there. I think there are maybe two things I'd poke at here. (1) Sports where transwomen enjoy greater advantage are more likely to have already excluded transwomen from womens' fields. And (2) the number of transwomen is tiny to begin with and AFAIK they have lower rates of participation in sports than ciswomen. I think you can basically make a case for including or excluding transwomen in women's sports depending on whether you think inclusion or fairness is most important.
  - delecti 2y ago
    > I think you can basically make a case for including or excluding transwomen in women's sports depending on whether you think inclusion or fairness is most important. A pretty wide spread of sports have allowed trans women*, and they have not dominated. If trans women did have an outsized performance in women's sports, there'd be examples to point to. I don't think you can make an evidence-based case for fairness and inclusion being at odds, given there aren't any unfair examples of inclusion to point to. Some of the most notable examples include weightlifting and swimming. In weightlifting, probably the sport I'd expect an unfair advantage to make itself most apparent, Laurel Hubbard got a DNF in the Olympics, and did merely pretty good in several other events. Or in swimming, another sport I'd expect body proportions to have a significant impact in, Lia Thomas, who was the center of a ton of controversy, also did merely fine. I'm not sure there are sports where trans women would have a bigger advantage than weightlifting, if such an advantage existed. And the tiny number of trans women interested in sports means that erring on the side of inclusion (if it does turn out to be an error) would also have a tiny negative impact, * - Pedantic side note, combining "transwomen" and "ciswomen" into single words implies that we're different base nouns. It's similar to how "chinamen" is not acceptable, but generally there's nothing wrong with "Chinese men". "Trans" and "cis" are just adjectives modifying "men" or "women".
sapphicsnail 2y ago
This is anecdotal evidence but I'm a trans woman who transitioned at 30. I ran cross country and track and was the fastest kid at my school in a relatively competitive program. I got depressed after college and gained a bunch of weight and only ran sporadically. I started HRT, I keep my T levels in the lowest range that's healthy for cis women. I got the urge to start exercising again. I now run more than twice as much as before, lost 40 pounds, and do roller derby on top of that. I'm still not as fast as I was when I was mostly sedentary, drinking beers every night in my apartment. I don't know if I'm faster or slower than I would have been if I was a cis woman but I did take a pretty big hit.