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It reminds me of Plato's Apology. It is the dialogue where Socrates is on trial for corrupting the youth. The end result is the citizens of Athens convict him a

It reminds me of Plato's Apology. It is the dialogue where Socrates is on trial for corrupting the youth. The end result is the citizens of Athens convict him and his options are to drink hemlock poison or ostracization. He chooses death. I think it is worth deeply pondering why a man as wise as Socrates would choose death over ostracization.

hn_acker 1y ago
> It reminds me of Plato's Apology. It is the dialogue where Socrates is on trial for corrupting the youth. Plato's Apology was not meant to be a wholly accurate account [1]. It's a partially fictional, philosophical account meant to demonstrate Socrates' intended message. But I digress. > The end result is the citizens of Athens convict him and his options are to drink hemlock poison or ostracization. My understanding is that Socrates chose death where he had the option of requesting legal exile, which in the context of "cancel culture" is not nearly the same as social ostracization. As for why Socrates would choose death, a superficial search gave me possible explanations (e.g. "death is not so bad" but more formal [2] or moral integrity toward family/friends [3]) that didn't center on the personal suffering or cruelty of exile or ostracization. I would add "moral integrity toward sticking to the truth" as another possible explanation (though I'm not entirely sympathetic to choosing suicide for any of these explanations). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)#The_text_of_Apology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)#The_text_of_Ap... [2] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-classical-journal/article/socrates-on-life-and-death-plato-apology-40c541c7/B2B0F7971118CD45D699C8F486D90348 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-classical-... [3] https://www.britannica.com/question/Why-didnt-Socrates-try-to-escape-his-death-sentence https://www.britannica.com/question/Why-didnt-Socrates-try-t...
- card_zero 1y ago
  Possibly he was anti-democratic, and was put on trial by the democratic government in troubled times (the Spartans had only recently gone away) because he was a threat, and he declined to be exiled by ostracism (from ostrakon, a clay pot, because pot shards were voting tokens), that is to be voted out, because he had no respect for a democratic process.
  - zoogeny 1y ago
    Instead of guessing you could read the dialogue where Socrates outlines his reasons in detail. But that doesn't mean you should accept his reasons, since the point is to feed your own curiosity rather than accept hand-fed answers.
    - card_zero 1y ago
      Hey, everybody has to guess, in this context.
      - zoogeny 1y ago
        Sure, but if your guess is "He probably hated democracy so much that he would rather die than accept it" (correct me if I'm implying something other than your meaning), then you should probably read the dialogue to check and see if that guess is reasonable based on the context provided.
        card_zero 1y ago
        Is it? (I doubt reading either Apology of Socrates will give an unambiguous reason why he didn't offer the exile option, if any reason.)
        zoogeny 1y ago
        Not in my opinion, but it isn't for me to decide. I want to encourage people to keep thinking. It is possible to consider many motivations for Socrates' decision, and the goal is to encourage the consideration of a wide array of possibilities rather than guess at one.
        card_zero 1y ago
        So far as I can tell the only relevant part (in Plato's version) is here: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0170:text=Apol.:section=30d&highlight=banish https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1... Where he has Socrates saying dismissively "perhaps kill me or banish me or disfranchise me", as if those are all just as bad (well, they all ruin his life of hanging around Athens harassing people philosophically), and saying that the Athenians will only hurt themselves if they by any means get rid of him.
- zoogeny 1y ago
  The point of Plato's dialogues (whether fictional, based on a real-story or otherwise) is to encourage thought and not to forward a conclusion with the aim to stop thought. I encourage people not to outsource their own thought to Wikipedia (or other sources). As the comment I was responding to suggested, ostracization is ancient. Ancient enough that it is the topic of one of the most famous dialogues by one of the most famous philosophers. I will add that the Apology is quite short and freely available online. It is worth the quick read, Then, as I suggested, I encourage people to deeply think about why Socrates chose death (rather than accept quick answers in HN comments).
  - alt227 1y ago
    Can you please point me to the text where Socrates chooses death over exhile? I have read Apology of Socrates in its entirety[0] and a few text analysis and I can find no evidence of this. It seems to me that Socrates suggested a fine[1], and it was his prosecuters which argued for death[2] [0] https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-source/plato-the-apology-of-socrates-sb/ https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-source/plato-the-apology-of-... [1] https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0170%3Atext%3DApol.%3Asection%3D36b https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext... [2] https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0170%3Atext%3DApol.%3Asection%3D38b https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...
    - zoogeny 1y ago
      He states that he won't accept it as part of his argumentation (See passages 37c, 37d): > And if I say exile (and this may possibly be the penalty which you will affix) One commentary I read suggested that it wasn't uncommon for political opponents to bring these kinds of charges against people in order to silence them. The idea being the accused would end up groveling and begging for their lives, promising to hold their tongues. It is assumed by the reader that Socrates could have done this and used his military service as a form of pathos. This passage implies that he will do neither, beg for clemency nor accept exile. One could read the passage as Socrates giving up hope in humanity, for he goes on: > I must indeed be blinded by the love of life if I were to consider that when you, who are my own citizens, [37d] cannot endure my discourses and words, and have found them so grievous and odious that you would want to have done with them, others are likely to endure me. No, indeed, men of Athens, that is not very likely. But, as I have implied, seeking simple answers in Plato is literally going against the point. edit, also 38e: > But I thought that I ought not to do anything common or mean in the hour of danger: nor do I now repent of the manner of my defense, and I would rather die having spoken after my manner, than speak in your manner and live. For neither in war nor yet at law ought any man to use every way of escaping death.

hn_acker 1y ago

> It reminds me of Plato's Apology. It is the dialogue where Socrates is on trial for corrupting the youth. Plato's Apology was not meant to be a wholly accurate account [1]. It's a partially fictional, philosophical account meant to demonstrate Socrates' intended message. But I digress. > The end result is the citizens of Athens convict him and his options are to drink hemlock poison or ostracization. My understanding is that Socrates chose death where he had the option of requesting legal exile, which in the context of "cancel culture" is not nearly the same as social ostracization. As for why Socrates would choose death, a superficial search gave me possible explanations (e.g. "death is not so bad" but more formal [2] or moral integrity toward family/friends [3]) that didn't center on the personal suffering or cruelty of exile or ostracization. I would add "moral integrity toward sticking to the truth" as another possible explanation (though I'm not entirely sympathetic to choosing suicide for any of these explanations). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)#The_text_of_Apology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_(Plato)#The_text_of_Ap... [2] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-classical-journal/article/socrates-on-life-and-death-plato-apology-40c541c7/B2B0F7971118CD45D699C8F486D90348 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/cambridge-classical-... [3] https://www.britannica.com/question/Why-didnt-Socrates-try-to-escape-his-death-sentence https://www.britannica.com/question/Why-didnt-Socrates-try-t...

card_zero 1y ago
Possibly he was anti-democratic, and was put on trial by the democratic government in troubled times (the Spartans had only recently gone away) because he was a threat, and he declined to be exiled by ostracism (from ostrakon, a clay pot, because pot shards were voting tokens), that is to be voted out, because he had no respect for a democratic process.
- zoogeny 1y ago
  Instead of guessing you could read the dialogue where Socrates outlines his reasons in detail. But that doesn't mean you should accept his reasons, since the point is to feed your own curiosity rather than accept hand-fed answers.
  - card_zero 1y ago
    Hey, everybody has to guess, in this context.
    - zoogeny 1y ago
      Sure, but if your guess is "He probably hated democracy so much that he would rather die than accept it" (correct me if I'm implying something other than your meaning), then you should probably read the dialogue to check and see if that guess is reasonable based on the context provided.
      - card_zero 1y ago
        Is it? (I doubt reading either Apology of Socrates will give an unambiguous reason why he didn't offer the exile option, if any reason.)
        zoogeny 1y ago
        Not in my opinion, but it isn't for me to decide. I want to encourage people to keep thinking. It is possible to consider many motivations for Socrates' decision, and the goal is to encourage the consideration of a wide array of possibilities rather than guess at one.
        card_zero 1y ago
        So far as I can tell the only relevant part (in Plato's version) is here: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0170:text=Apol.:section=30d&highlight=banish https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1... Where he has Socrates saying dismissively "perhaps kill me or banish me or disfranchise me", as if those are all just as bad (well, they all ruin his life of hanging around Athens harassing people philosophically), and saying that the Athenians will only hurt themselves if they by any means get rid of him.
zoogeny 1y ago
The point of Plato's dialogues (whether fictional, based on a real-story or otherwise) is to encourage thought and not to forward a conclusion with the aim to stop thought. I encourage people not to outsource their own thought to Wikipedia (or other sources). As the comment I was responding to suggested, ostracization is ancient. Ancient enough that it is the topic of one of the most famous dialogues by one of the most famous philosophers. I will add that the Apology is quite short and freely available online. It is worth the quick read, Then, as I suggested, I encourage people to deeply think about why Socrates chose death (rather than accept quick answers in HN comments).
- alt227 1y ago
  Can you please point me to the text where Socrates chooses death over exhile? I have read Apology of Socrates in its entirety[0] and a few text analysis and I can find no evidence of this. It seems to me that Socrates suggested a fine[1], and it was his prosecuters which argued for death[2] [0] https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-source/plato-the-apology-of-socrates-sb/ https://chs.harvard.edu/primary-source/plato-the-apology-of-... [1] https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0170%3Atext%3DApol.%3Asection%3D36b https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext... [2] https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0170%3Atext%3DApol.%3Asection%3D38b https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...
  - zoogeny 1y ago
    He states that he won't accept it as part of his argumentation (See passages 37c, 37d): > And if I say exile (and this may possibly be the penalty which you will affix) One commentary I read suggested that it wasn't uncommon for political opponents to bring these kinds of charges against people in order to silence them. The idea being the accused would end up groveling and begging for their lives, promising to hold their tongues. It is assumed by the reader that Socrates could have done this and used his military service as a form of pathos. This passage implies that he will do neither, beg for clemency nor accept exile. One could read the passage as Socrates giving up hope in humanity, for he goes on: > I must indeed be blinded by the love of life if I were to consider that when you, who are my own citizens, [37d] cannot endure my discourses and words, and have found them so grievous and odious that you would want to have done with them, others are likely to endure me. No, indeed, men of Athens, that is not very likely. But, as I have implied, seeking simple answers in Plato is literally going against the point. edit, also 38e: > But I thought that I ought not to do anything common or mean in the hour of danger: nor do I now repent of the manner of my defense, and I would rather die having spoken after my manner, than speak in your manner and live. For neither in war nor yet at law ought any man to use every way of escaping death.