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So, if I understand the argument, TikTok is an intentional, government-sponsored scheme to destroy the minds of non-chinese children? Is that accurate?

blagie 1y ago
The world is more complex than that. There is plenty of evidence that drugs like opium were deliberately used to keep countries oppressed, but the dominant goal was to make money to pay for tea. There is plenty of evidence that alcohol was deliberately used, in some countries, to keep serfs oppressed and prevent them from organizing. It's close to an accurate statement, but it would need to have a few changes to phrasing to be so, such as: * "government-sponsored" -> "government-supported" or encouraged * "destroy the minds of non-chinese children" -> "help Chinese kids maintain a competitive advantage over American kids" As-is, it sounds more like a deliberate strawman.
- skyyler 1y ago
  Okay, so, "TikTok is an intentional, government-supported scheme to help Chinese kids maintain a competitive advantage over American kids" Is that accurate?
  - blagie 1y ago
    You'd still need to edit quite a few more words. For example, the world is much more opportunistic than that. I know you're looking for a precise statement you can beat up (much as my edits are taking away the ludicrous parts), but the world is also not fully observable. Opposing governments (and individuals, and armies, and ...) often take swipes at each other, but knowing the precise chain of events, intent, players, etc. leading to each swipe is usually not possible without extensive insider knowledge. However, it is possible to observe one side taking a swipe at another, without knowing every detail behind it.
    - skyyler 1y ago
      I just want to understand why everyone is talking about China being evil. I've been asking (politely, even!) for reasoning and people seem to be hostile to it. I know the world is complicated, I'm not looking for an agreed definition so I can make fun of it or something, I really want to know why people hate China so much.
      - blagie 1y ago
        I see. That question makes sense. I don't hate China. I'm very glad we have a competing model of governance, and I'd like to see a diverse range of governments in the world. China is experimenting with a very different model, and for all the faults with that model, I'm grateful for that. If the goal is to understand the anger and hatred, a good place to start is the persecution of the Uyghurs. That one is pretty over-the-top evil, and you can learn more here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8 There are many other such things happening. In general, hate is based on cherrypicking the bad things about "them" and the good things about "us." That's as true across political lines, as across countries, as across some religious divides. To your original question: "What makes the Chinese government evil in a way that the US Government is not," the US government does NOT do things like this. It does a completely different set of evil things, and a completely different set of good things. Part of the reason cherrypicking works is there is no equivalence between e.g. Muslims in Gitmo and cultural oppression in Tibet. They're different. The Chinese government is evil in a way the US government is not, good in a way the US government is not (and vice-versa). Which is worse depends on your set of values, and consequently, it's very easy to make one side seem like pure evil and the other side to seem like pure good. All that said, I do think TikTok (and a lot of other social media) has about the same level of negative impact as many drugs, and I think specifically in the case of TikTok, the impact on American kids is at least in part a deliberate geopolitical jab. If Facebook has a decision whether to make money or help kids, it will make money, finances being equal, it will pick to be socially-responsible. TikTok, for impact on American kids, is probably mostly the opposite. Is that worse than a fake CIA vaccination campaign in Pakistan? It depends on whom you ask. However, it is, without argument, different.

blagie 1y ago

The world is more complex than that. There is plenty of evidence that drugs like opium were deliberately used to keep countries oppressed, but the dominant goal was to make money to pay for tea. There is plenty of evidence that alcohol was deliberately used, in some countries, to keep serfs oppressed and prevent them from organizing. It's close to an accurate statement, but it would need to have a few changes to phrasing to be so, such as: * "government-sponsored" -> "government-supported" or encouraged * "destroy the minds of non-chinese children" -> "help Chinese kids maintain a competitive advantage over American kids" As-is, it sounds more like a deliberate strawman.

skyyler 1y ago
Okay, so, "TikTok is an intentional, government-supported scheme to help Chinese kids maintain a competitive advantage over American kids" Is that accurate?
- blagie 1y ago
  You'd still need to edit quite a few more words. For example, the world is much more opportunistic than that. I know you're looking for a precise statement you can beat up (much as my edits are taking away the ludicrous parts), but the world is also not fully observable. Opposing governments (and individuals, and armies, and ...) often take swipes at each other, but knowing the precise chain of events, intent, players, etc. leading to each swipe is usually not possible without extensive insider knowledge. However, it is possible to observe one side taking a swipe at another, without knowing every detail behind it.
  - skyyler 1y ago
    I just want to understand why everyone is talking about China being evil. I've been asking (politely, even!) for reasoning and people seem to be hostile to it. I know the world is complicated, I'm not looking for an agreed definition so I can make fun of it or something, I really want to know why people hate China so much.
    - blagie 1y ago
      I see. That question makes sense. I don't hate China. I'm very glad we have a competing model of governance, and I'd like to see a diverse range of governments in the world. China is experimenting with a very different model, and for all the faults with that model, I'm grateful for that. If the goal is to understand the anger and hatred, a good place to start is the persecution of the Uyghurs. That one is pretty over-the-top evil, and you can learn more here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17oCQakzIl8 There are many other such things happening. In general, hate is based on cherrypicking the bad things about "them" and the good things about "us." That's as true across political lines, as across countries, as across some religious divides. To your original question: "What makes the Chinese government evil in a way that the US Government is not," the US government does NOT do things like this. It does a completely different set of evil things, and a completely different set of good things. Part of the reason cherrypicking works is there is no equivalence between e.g. Muslims in Gitmo and cultural oppression in Tibet. They're different. The Chinese government is evil in a way the US government is not, good in a way the US government is not (and vice-versa). Which is worse depends on your set of values, and consequently, it's very easy to make one side seem like pure evil and the other side to seem like pure good. All that said, I do think TikTok (and a lot of other social media) has about the same level of negative impact as many drugs, and I think specifically in the case of TikTok, the impact on American kids is at least in part a deliberate geopolitical jab. If Facebook has a decision whether to make money or help kids, it will make money, finances being equal, it will pick to be socially-responsible. TikTok, for impact on American kids, is probably mostly the opposite. Is that worse than a fake CIA vaccination campaign in Pakistan? It depends on whom you ask. However, it is, without argument, different.