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I wonder how much of this will just encourage protests and radicalization. If your agent is trained to match a profile of a radical, then it necessarily is spre

I wonder how much of this will just encourage protests and radicalization. If your agent is trained to match a profile of a radical, then it necessarily is spreading and encouraging that radical messaging in order to fit in and gain trust. At least with real agents there is a plausible mechanism for their judgement to filter out who is targeted and they can't infinitely propagate like the AI could.

nemomarx 2y ago
It's already somewhat normal for cops to try and radicalize people to create evidence for arrests so it's only a question of scaling up, right?
- giantg2 2y ago
  That's what I worded it the way I did. At least theoretically the humans have some judgement that could limit who they go after or how far they push and can't propagate infinitely. The issue with AI is the even greater lack of accountability and the potential for its messaging to more easily hit a critical mass. So far, the human version tends to focus on very small groups or subgroups. The scaling seems like a much bigger threat with different possible societal effects.
  - nemomarx 2y ago
    Yeah, that's fair. Without oversight and just doing it on Reddit for example you could get broad radical bases. On the other hand, more people to arrest or crack down on? And then they can't vote, so that's parsimonious for some actors.
    - whatshisface 2y ago
      >“Supervisor [Cavanaugh] ultimately voted for the agreement because Massive Blue is alleged to be in pursuit of human trafficking, a noble goal,” a representative from Cavanaugh’s office told 404 Media in an email. “A major concern regarding the use of the application, is that the government should not be monitoring each and every citizen. To his knowledge, no arrests have been made to date as a result of the use of the application. If Overwatch is used to bring about arrests of human traffickers, then the program should continue. However, if it is just being used to collect surveillance on law-abiding citizens and is not leading to any arrests, then the program needs to be discontinued.” It's a direct ultimatum: radicalize/encourage the targets, or lose the contract. At least the government spokesperson is focusing on the actual crime, and not the "we'll report on political opponents" service.
      - moate 2y ago
        So the thing about "crime" is that everyone is doing it daily, and just not knowing/being caught. The whole "we'll report on political opponents" is absolutely the value of the software, it's just not reporting anything they can use in court, so it's just boring spying. The cynical take is that the whole "law-abiding citizens" differentiation is just a way to say "I want this focused on out-group, not targeting in-group bad guys we're not interested in prosecuting". Think about who runs around saying "true Americans" or "patriots" to mean "my coalition" as opposed to a more objective definition.
  - runarberg 2y ago
    > At least theoretically the humans have some judgement that could limit who they go after or how far they push and can't propagate infinitely. While the scale is certainly limited, the judgement is not. Cops have been known to use convicted sex criminals, and even medically diagnosed psychopaths to either entrap, provocateur or as foreign agents. There is a famous case in Iceland where the FBI used a convicted sex felon and a known psychopath Siggi Hakkari as a foreign agent to spy in the Icelandic Parliament. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurdur_Thordarson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurdur_Thordarson) With cops we can safely assume a complete lack of morality and judgement.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      They use "bad people" because the rest of the system is predisposed ignore them when they say "the cops made me do X and I have the text messages to prove it".
      - FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
        Compromised individuals become assets because they are easiest to coerce. No one volunteers to do this stuff out the goodness of their heart.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    >potential for its messaging to more easily hit a critical mass. Like that time we funded a minor regional insurgency that went on to a) kick out the Russians b) run their own country c) attack us d) kick us out e) run their own country. The feds losing control of their assets has been a meme ever since Kennedy ate a bullet.
    - moate 2y ago
      >>The feds losing control of their assets has been a meme ever since Kennedy ate a bullet. Hey, that's not fair. The problem of governments running authoritarian operations that have wider reaching consequences as they spiral out of State control is MUCH older than that...
      - potato3732842 2y ago
        >wider reaching consequences as they spiral out of State control is MUCH older than that. Alea iacta est
        Y_Y 2y ago
        You saying Caesar was a spook?
        potato3732842 2y ago
        It was just an example of the state losing control of an instrument they had built up to increase their own power.
wat10000 2y ago
You say that as if that wasn’t the goal.
apercu 2y ago
I don't know, the time to be out on in the streets throwing rocks was ~25 years ago. It might be too late now (mass surveillance and a fascist-wanna be government).
- 0xEF 2y ago
  The only time it's too late to resist totalitarianism in its various forms is when you're dead.
- thih9 2y ago
  Hello, land of the resigned.
- moate 2y ago
  "More friends, bigger rocks, help defeat our enemies" is basically the basis of all of human civilization, so look to the wisdom of your ancestors.
- i80and 2y ago
  "Fighting fascism is a full time job!" — Lieutenant Shaxs
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  don't bring a cell phone, wear a mask, wear different shoes to change your gait, STFU -- none of these are hard.
nopelynopington 2y ago
There's a sci-fi story in there somewhere, about a government overthrown by a revolution orchestrated by AI designed to go undercover
- thih9 2y ago
  If there isn’t, an AI could write it: https://github.com/lechmazur/writing?tab=readme-ov-file https://github.com/lechmazur/writing?tab=readme-ov-file
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    Why should I, as a reader, spend the time to read a meaningless story that no person could be arsed to write, when I could spend a lifetime reading and never get through only the best works humanity has actually created? There is no shortage of fiction that we need language models to address. Honestly I feel the same about all model outputs that are passed off as art. If it's not worth the time for the creator to make, why is it worth my time as an audience member to consider it? There is a whole world of real artists dying for audiences. I'll pay them in attention and money. Not bots. There's no connection to be had with a bot or its output
    - HelloMcFly 2y ago
      I'm asking out of curiosity and as I explore my own thoughts on this: is there any level of AI involvement in art creation that you think is acceptable? For instance, I write short stories (i.e., about 8-30k words). I've done it before AI, and outside some short stories I've had published I mostly just do it for my own sense of creative expression. Some of my friends and family read my stuff, but I am not writing for an audience, at least I haven't yet. One thing I've experimented with recently is using AI as an editor, something I've never had because I'm not a professional, and I do not want to burden my friends and family with requests for feedback on unfinished works. I create the ideas (every short story I've ever written has at least 5k words in a "story bible"), I write the words on the page. In my last two stories, I've tested using AI to give me feedback on consistency of tone, word repetition, unidentifiable motivations, etc. While the feedback I get often suggests or observes things that are done intentionally, it also has provided some really useful observations and guidance and has incrementally made my subsequent writing better. Thus far I don't feel like I've lost any of the authorship of the product, but I also know that for some any AI used spoils the pot. For the above, I did spend time (a lot of it) to make it, but does any use of AI in any capacity render it not worth your time to read it? I am asking sincerely!
Teever 2y ago
How long until people use this to radicalize the cops? Thin Blue Line: Even Thinner Edition Imagine people using bots to make interdepartmental conflicts that turn violent. The guy in precinct 32 is sleeping with my wife, I'm sure of it, I've seen the proof online. That kind of stuff.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  It's difficult to imagine there is any room remaining on the margins for American cops to be any more extreme than they already are.
  - Teever 2y ago
    The goal would be to fracture their organizations so that they're attacking each other instead of the protesters.
    - jeffbee 2y ago
      You want to astroturf the sheriffs' facebook feed with memes like "Woke Local Cops REFUSE to Taser MS-13 CEO"?
    - pixl97 2y ago
      As someone that has worked in proximity to law enforcement a fair amount this would likely have some effect on outlier officers that are not part of the 'cop cult'. The problem is the worst actors, the ones you really want to get rid of are going to be more resistant to said tactics when the start pitting good friends against each other. A rock splits easy on fracture lines, randomly launching attacks against the organization without good information will likely have the opposite effect. "Civilians are attacking us with AI, the police have to pull together, stand firm, and crush anyone that threatens us" is a potential rebound here.
      - Teever 2y ago
        Yes this is obviously a tactic that only works if the organization that it is used against is not aware that it is being used. Law enforcement is not unique in this regard.

nemomarx 2y ago

It's already somewhat normal for cops to try and radicalize people to create evidence for arrests so it's only a question of scaling up, right?

giantg2 2y ago
That's what I worded it the way I did. At least theoretically the humans have some judgement that could limit who they go after or how far they push and can't propagate infinitely. The issue with AI is the even greater lack of accountability and the potential for its messaging to more easily hit a critical mass. So far, the human version tends to focus on very small groups or subgroups. The scaling seems like a much bigger threat with different possible societal effects.
- nemomarx 2y ago
  Yeah, that's fair. Without oversight and just doing it on Reddit for example you could get broad radical bases. On the other hand, more people to arrest or crack down on? And then they can't vote, so that's parsimonious for some actors.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    >“Supervisor [Cavanaugh] ultimately voted for the agreement because Massive Blue is alleged to be in pursuit of human trafficking, a noble goal,” a representative from Cavanaugh’s office told 404 Media in an email. “A major concern regarding the use of the application, is that the government should not be monitoring each and every citizen. To his knowledge, no arrests have been made to date as a result of the use of the application. If Overwatch is used to bring about arrests of human traffickers, then the program should continue. However, if it is just being used to collect surveillance on law-abiding citizens and is not leading to any arrests, then the program needs to be discontinued.” It's a direct ultimatum: radicalize/encourage the targets, or lose the contract. At least the government spokesperson is focusing on the actual crime, and not the "we'll report on political opponents" service.
    - moate 2y ago
      So the thing about "crime" is that everyone is doing it daily, and just not knowing/being caught. The whole "we'll report on political opponents" is absolutely the value of the software, it's just not reporting anything they can use in court, so it's just boring spying. The cynical take is that the whole "law-abiding citizens" differentiation is just a way to say "I want this focused on out-group, not targeting in-group bad guys we're not interested in prosecuting". Think about who runs around saying "true Americans" or "patriots" to mean "my coalition" as opposed to a more objective definition.
- runarberg 2y ago
  > At least theoretically the humans have some judgement that could limit who they go after or how far they push and can't propagate infinitely. While the scale is certainly limited, the judgement is not. Cops have been known to use convicted sex criminals, and even medically diagnosed psychopaths to either entrap, provocateur or as foreign agents. There is a famous case in Iceland where the FBI used a convicted sex felon and a known psychopath Siggi Hakkari as a foreign agent to spy in the Icelandic Parliament. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurdur_Thordarson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigurdur_Thordarson) With cops we can safely assume a complete lack of morality and judgement.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    They use "bad people" because the rest of the system is predisposed ignore them when they say "the cops made me do X and I have the text messages to prove it".
    - FuriouslyAdrift 2y ago
      Compromised individuals become assets because they are easiest to coerce. No one volunteers to do this stuff out the goodness of their heart.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- potato3732842 2y ago
  >potential for its messaging to more easily hit a critical mass. Like that time we funded a minor regional insurgency that went on to a) kick out the Russians b) run their own country c) attack us d) kick us out e) run their own country. The feds losing control of their assets has been a meme ever since Kennedy ate a bullet.
  - moate 2y ago
    >>The feds losing control of their assets has been a meme ever since Kennedy ate a bullet. Hey, that's not fair. The problem of governments running authoritarian operations that have wider reaching consequences as they spiral out of State control is MUCH older than that...
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      >wider reaching consequences as they spiral out of State control is MUCH older than that. Alea iacta est
      - Y_Y 2y ago
        You saying Caesar was a spook?
        potato3732842 2y ago
        It was just an example of the state losing control of an instrument they had built up to increase their own power.

wat10000 2y ago

You say that as if that wasn’t the goal.

apercu 2y ago

I don't know, the time to be out on in the streets throwing rocks was ~25 years ago. It might be too late now (mass surveillance and a fascist-wanna be government).

0xEF 2y ago
The only time it's too late to resist totalitarianism in its various forms is when you're dead.
thih9 2y ago
Hello, land of the resigned.
moate 2y ago
"More friends, bigger rocks, help defeat our enemies" is basically the basis of all of human civilization, so look to the wisdom of your ancestors.
i80and 2y ago
"Fighting fascism is a full time job!" — Lieutenant Shaxs
red-iron-pine 2y ago
don't bring a cell phone, wear a mask, wear different shoes to change your gait, STFU -- none of these are hard.

nopelynopington 2y ago

There's a sci-fi story in there somewhere, about a government overthrown by a revolution orchestrated by AI designed to go undercover

thih9 2y ago
If there isn’t, an AI could write it: https://github.com/lechmazur/writing?tab=readme-ov-file https://github.com/lechmazur/writing?tab=readme-ov-file
- dingnuts 2y ago
  Why should I, as a reader, spend the time to read a meaningless story that no person could be arsed to write, when I could spend a lifetime reading and never get through only the best works humanity has actually created? There is no shortage of fiction that we need language models to address. Honestly I feel the same about all model outputs that are passed off as art. If it's not worth the time for the creator to make, why is it worth my time as an audience member to consider it? There is a whole world of real artists dying for audiences. I'll pay them in attention and money. Not bots. There's no connection to be had with a bot or its output
  - HelloMcFly 2y ago
    I'm asking out of curiosity and as I explore my own thoughts on this: is there any level of AI involvement in art creation that you think is acceptable? For instance, I write short stories (i.e., about 8-30k words). I've done it before AI, and outside some short stories I've had published I mostly just do it for my own sense of creative expression. Some of my friends and family read my stuff, but I am not writing for an audience, at least I haven't yet. One thing I've experimented with recently is using AI as an editor, something I've never had because I'm not a professional, and I do not want to burden my friends and family with requests for feedback on unfinished works. I create the ideas (every short story I've ever written has at least 5k words in a "story bible"), I write the words on the page. In my last two stories, I've tested using AI to give me feedback on consistency of tone, word repetition, unidentifiable motivations, etc. While the feedback I get often suggests or observes things that are done intentionally, it also has provided some really useful observations and guidance and has incrementally made my subsequent writing better. Thus far I don't feel like I've lost any of the authorship of the product, but I also know that for some any AI used spoils the pot. For the above, I did spend time (a lot of it) to make it, but does any use of AI in any capacity render it not worth your time to read it? I am asking sincerely!

Teever 2y ago

How long until people use this to radicalize the cops? Thin Blue Line: Even Thinner Edition Imagine people using bots to make interdepartmental conflicts that turn violent. The guy in precinct 32 is sleeping with my wife, I'm sure of it, I've seen the proof online. That kind of stuff.

jeffbee 2y ago
It's difficult to imagine there is any room remaining on the margins for American cops to be any more extreme than they already are.
- Teever 2y ago
  The goal would be to fracture their organizations so that they're attacking each other instead of the protesters.
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    You want to astroturf the sheriffs' facebook feed with memes like "Woke Local Cops REFUSE to Taser MS-13 CEO"?
  - pixl97 2y ago
    As someone that has worked in proximity to law enforcement a fair amount this would likely have some effect on outlier officers that are not part of the 'cop cult'. The problem is the worst actors, the ones you really want to get rid of are going to be more resistant to said tactics when the start pitting good friends against each other. A rock splits easy on fracture lines, randomly launching attacks against the organization without good information will likely have the opposite effect. "Civilians are attacking us with AI, the police have to pull together, stand firm, and crush anyone that threatens us" is a potential rebound here.
    - Teever 2y ago
      Yes this is obviously a tactic that only works if the organization that it is used against is not aware that it is being used. Law enforcement is not unique in this regard.