6 ms·

I mean it's trite but obviously a democracy can fail in this way (see Weimar Germany). If you can make enough people feel aggrieved and give them an "other" to

I mean it's trite but obviously a democracy can fail in this way (see Weimar Germany). If you can make enough people feel aggrieved and give them an "other" to hate, you're off to the races. This US slip into authoritarianism should cause us all to reconsider history too. This is the wealthiest country in the world, so economic trouble is clearly not required, and it gives lie to the notion that the US had some kind of unique structural defense against authoritarianism - maybe there is no defense, and this is inevitable.

atmavatar 2y ago
A big part of the problem is that wealth has overwhelmingly been funneled upwards. Despite being the wealthiest country on the planet, and despite said wealth largely increasing over time, the average person hasn't felt it, because they don't get a cut. For over 50 years now, wages have become disconnected with productivity, with the capital class siphoning off nearly all productivity gains for themselves at the expense of everyone else. See: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ See: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/chart/ https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distr... One of the primary reasons Trump won the election is that the Democrats were hailing the high-level economic numbers as a big success, but the average person wasn't really feeling it. Being told that things are going great when they're suffering put many people off voting and caused others to vote against the incumbent party in hopes of a change. Unfortunately for the masses, the Republican party has largely been responsible for the current wealth inequality through repeated tax cuts disproportionately affecting the wealthy and attacks on worker representation over the last half century. Though, to be fair, despite their rhetoric, the Democratic party has generally been complicit, as they are also owned and operated by moneyed interests. Citizens United was probably the final nail in the coffin containing any hope to turn things around.
- ajross 2y ago
  This nonsense drives me bananas. It's not true. There are no numbers showing that the median/average/working-class/whatever American citizen is worse off in any meaningful way. Period. It didn't happen. Americans are wealthier now[1] than they ever have been. Americans are wealthier now than anyone[2] has been, ever, in the entirety of human experience. That they (and you) don't believe this to be the case is important and interesting. But it's not true. [1] Maybe not for that ←long once the Q2/Q3 results show up with the tariff impact and the layoff start [2] Anyone with a broad enough sampling I guess. There are always tiny states with skewed statistics.
  - MiguelX413 2y ago
    Wealthy doesn't mean anything when paired with unaffordable.
    - ajross 2y ago
      No, no, no. Americans are wealthier in PPP metrics than they ever have been. There are no numbers that show what you believe. None. It's wrong. And yet you, and everyone else, believes it anyway. And because Everyone Believes It you figure it must represent some great truth and thus people showing you numbers to the contrary must be wrong, or lying. And so you end up prey for politicians lying to you, and you elect a government that starts a trade war. And I guess it does represent such a truth, but it's a great truth about universal delusion at the end of an empire, or something else. It's not about wealth. It's not.
  - deepsun 2y ago
    It always, always is relative. People compare themselves with neighbors/TV, not with themselves 50 years ago. Totally agree with you, don't know why so many downvotes. But important point is wealth is never absolute, but comparative. And that's where inequality comes into play. Almost all revolutions happen because of inequality. I've met Silicon Valley multi-millionaires why cried they are poor and how those damn billionaires gentrifying them from their lovely neighborhoods. I'm against forced equalization of incomes, but on the long run that's what keeps the system stable. Unless you are Norway, of course, where people strongly believe equalization is good, and post everyone's compensation on public (well, taxes, but it's easy to get comp from taxes). UPDATE: so the metric we should look at is Gini index, not GDP or PPP.
    - ajross 2y ago
      That explains jealousy, not "suffering" as the upthread commenter put it. No, this is 100% irrational. I mean, think about it: there have always been phenomenally wealthy people. If every billionaire in the US had their net worth cut by 50%, instantly, that would fix the "Gini index" you think we should be looking at. But would their lifestyles change? Would anyone but the billionaires even notice? If you stop a person on the street and ask "Is it fair that Bill Gates is worth $50B dollars?", they're going to say "no", right? That's way too much money. Except, of course, that Gates is worth twice that and the number is something that you argue should be "fair". No, it's not numbers. It's irrational delusion fed by fear and anger and click-chasing from everywhere across the media landscape. But. It's. Wrong. And someone needs to start telling people that. Because at this point our shared delusion is causing a trade war that is going to make all of us (literally, all of humanity) poorer.

atmavatar 2y ago

A big part of the problem is that wealth has overwhelmingly been funneled upwards. Despite being the wealthiest country on the planet, and despite said wealth largely increasing over time, the average person hasn't felt it, because they don't get a cut. For over 50 years now, wages have become disconnected with productivity, with the capital class siphoning off nearly all productivity gains for themselves at the expense of everyone else. See: https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ See: https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distribute/chart/ https://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/z1/dataviz/dfa/distr... One of the primary reasons Trump won the election is that the Democrats were hailing the high-level economic numbers as a big success, but the average person wasn't really feeling it. Being told that things are going great when they're suffering put many people off voting and caused others to vote against the incumbent party in hopes of a change. Unfortunately for the masses, the Republican party has largely been responsible for the current wealth inequality through repeated tax cuts disproportionately affecting the wealthy and attacks on worker representation over the last half century. Though, to be fair, despite their rhetoric, the Democratic party has generally been complicit, as they are also owned and operated by moneyed interests. Citizens United was probably the final nail in the coffin containing any hope to turn things around.

ajross 2y ago
This nonsense drives me bananas. It's not true. There are no numbers showing that the median/average/working-class/whatever American citizen is worse off in any meaningful way. Period. It didn't happen. Americans are wealthier now[1] than they ever have been. Americans are wealthier now than anyone[2] has been, ever, in the entirety of human experience. That they (and you) don't believe this to be the case is important and interesting. But it's not true. [1] Maybe not for that ←long once the Q2/Q3 results show up with the tariff impact and the layoff start [2] Anyone with a broad enough sampling I guess. There are always tiny states with skewed statistics.
- MiguelX413 2y ago
  Wealthy doesn't mean anything when paired with unaffordable.
  - ajross 2y ago
    No, no, no. Americans are wealthier in PPP metrics than they ever have been. There are no numbers that show what you believe. None. It's wrong. And yet you, and everyone else, believes it anyway. And because Everyone Believes It you figure it must represent some great truth and thus people showing you numbers to the contrary must be wrong, or lying. And so you end up prey for politicians lying to you, and you elect a government that starts a trade war. And I guess it does represent such a truth, but it's a great truth about universal delusion at the end of an empire, or something else. It's not about wealth. It's not.
- deepsun 2y ago
  It always, always is relative. People compare themselves with neighbors/TV, not with themselves 50 years ago. Totally agree with you, don't know why so many downvotes. But important point is wealth is never absolute, but comparative. And that's where inequality comes into play. Almost all revolutions happen because of inequality. I've met Silicon Valley multi-millionaires why cried they are poor and how those damn billionaires gentrifying them from their lovely neighborhoods. I'm against forced equalization of incomes, but on the long run that's what keeps the system stable. Unless you are Norway, of course, where people strongly believe equalization is good, and post everyone's compensation on public (well, taxes, but it's easy to get comp from taxes). UPDATE: so the metric we should look at is Gini index, not GDP or PPP.
  - ajross 2y ago
    That explains jealousy, not "suffering" as the upthread commenter put it. No, this is 100% irrational. I mean, think about it: there have always been phenomenally wealthy people. If every billionaire in the US had their net worth cut by 50%, instantly, that would fix the "Gini index" you think we should be looking at. But would their lifestyles change? Would anyone but the billionaires even notice? If you stop a person on the street and ask "Is it fair that Bill Gates is worth $50B dollars?", they're going to say "no", right? That's way too much money. Except, of course, that Gates is worth twice that and the number is something that you argue should be "fair". No, it's not numbers. It's irrational delusion fed by fear and anger and click-chasing from everywhere across the media landscape. But. It's. Wrong. And someone needs to start telling people that. Because at this point our shared delusion is causing a trade war that is going to make all of us (literally, all of humanity) poorer.