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Software Runs the World: How Scared Should We Be That So Much of It Is So Bad?

73 points by cwan 14y ago

mgkimsal 14y ago
How many of the business processes that software manages were better before the software took over? MOST companies I've seen inside were a hodge-podge of bad/missing/sloppy paperwork and poorly documented or even understood guidelines and policies. Software amplifies everything about a business, both the good and the bad. The downside is that because so much is networked today, something "going wrong" can have much larger consequences (and faster) than a wrong decision carried out on paper 30 years ago.
- SoftwareMaven 14y ago
  While this is definitely true, the amount of damage those paper-based systems was limited. As the Knight Capital case showed, it is possible to lose millions of dollars a minute with poor software. That would not have been possible with human trades.
  - patio11 14y ago
    That would not have been possible with human trades Tell this to Mizuho Securities, where a human sold 620,000 shares at 1 yen instead of 1 share at 620,000 yen. ~$300 million loss in a single botched trade. Humans at both Mizuho and the Tokyo Stock Exchange saw the trade and all declined to intervene because they assumed they had insufficient authority to countermand the trader.
- mattmanser 14y ago
  Come off it, you take an old school accounts department, put in any accounting software and boom, massive ball ache solved. The majority of the accounts department suddenly turns into credit control. There's a very good reason why the enterprise software industry sells billions. Because they save 10s, 100s or 1000s of billions. For custom software, that's what a good consultant/PM is actually for, to translate 'what we thought we were doing' into 'what we're actually doing' into the final product of 'what it should actually do'. I once worked for a company that sold project and document management software. The strangest call I ever got was from a small 20 person company phoning us up and saying 'What is Sue supposed to do now, she doesn't have anything to do'. That's what you bought the software for, to save money. Added bonus, management gets massive strategic oversight. But in the end it's up to them to use it.
  - joshmlewis 14y ago
    Example of a company saving a trillion dollars because of software?
    - sp332 14y ago
      >the enterprise software industry Not just one company. IM apps alone may have saved trillions.
      - mgkimsal 14y ago
        But... how much waste have they introduced as well? I think a lot of old 'water cooler' talk may have been amplified by IM, solitaire, email, etc - much harder to visibly detect the amount of waste introduced by these technologies, although I'm sure they've saved a lot as well.
        pavel_lishin 14y ago
        Sure, but now I don't have to go to the water cooler. Talking about a movie with the coworker down the hall is now a parallel process that takes maybe two minutes of total typing time, and while I'm not typing at him, I'm working on other things. Compare to the water cooler, where it might take me a whole minute just to walk down there. Then we sit around and shoot the shit for maybe five minutes. Total time spent, let's call it seven minutes during which nothing got done except some simian grooming.
- quanticle 14y ago
  Software amplifies everything about a business, both the good and the bad. The downside is that because so much is networked today, something "going wrong" can have much larger consequences (and faster) than a wrong decision carried out on paper 30 years ago. I think that's the distinction James Kwak is trying to make. He isn't saying that the business processes (in this case, buying and selling stocks) was especially clean before software. He is saying that software makes the system faster (amplifying the effects of a poor business process, as you say) while removing a human buffer. When a human order-taker sees an unexpected zero on an order sheet he or she has enough common sense to ask the person handing it to him or her whether the figure is correct. Most financial software doesn't have that "common sense", so it's easy for inadvertent slip-ups or programming errors to cascade into firm-ending chain reactions. Obviously, the solution to this isn't to go back to slow and inefficient human processes. I think the solution is to continue doing what we're starting to see today - software that asks whether we're sure we know what we're doing when it sees a variable that's out of line. In addition, I think that many software systems are way too monolithic. That is, every component of the system implicitly trusts every other component. I would like to see software broken up into smaller communicating components, where each component can make assertions about the input and output of other components, and components can fail without bringing down the whole system. The system I've seen come closest to this is Erlang's OTP, but there's no particular reason for that model to be limited to Erlang.
tomp 14y ago
> And perhaps the most mission-critical of all mission-critical applications are the ones that underpin the securities markets where a large share of the world's wealth is locked up. Really? I don't even consider the stock market software as mission critical. I mean, Jane Street's software is written in OCaml... Mission critical is software that controls lives. Airplane, spaceship, heart pacer, ...
- ucee054 14y ago
  You have your definitions confused. Critical software leads to people's death when it goes wrong. Mission critical software leads to the mission's death when it goes wrong. Where the mission is usually "make money".
  - 69_years_and 14y ago
    Unless of course ones mission is to fly an aircraft, control a power station, connect a phone call, keep someone's heart beating... Just words... The above commenter has a point. Mission critical is also about the effective control of a physical process just as much as it can be about smooth flow of money (which is just another process). In some ways the article title is misleading as it touches on only a fraction of the software that actually runs the world - there is a shit load of software actually running the world (incl. making physical stuff go) and from what I can see most of it does a decent job, in general (of course there is always room for improvement). Disclosure: I'm a process control programmer so am biased in my view as to what actually 'runs the world' :). Taking nothing away from the money processing side of the business.
    - ucee054 14y ago
      Intersect("Critical","Mission Critical") != "Mission Critical" Intersect("Critical","Mission Critical") == "Critical"
wizard_2 14y ago
Humans are the resilience in any system. No system is ever perfect, and no system will ever be. I think we'll be fine.
- quanticle 14y ago
  Not necessarily. Part of Kwak's problem with software is that it is taking humans out of the system. For example, the stock trading software that runs a modern exchange replaces the human traders who used to exchange physical slips of paper. A human trader can look at a particular trade, say, "Hmmm, that doesn't look right," and ask for confirmation. A computer can't (in the general case). So, if humans are the resilience in any system, what happens when you start taking humans out?
  - yummyfajitas 14y ago
    A computer can't (in the general case). They do this all the time. There are quite a few pre and post-trade checks enforced by the exchanges. The net result is that if things go wildly wrong, trading will most likely stop. This is part of the reason why Knight Capital's implosion had such a minimal effect on anything besides Knight's shareholders.
    - quanticle 14y ago
      That's true, and the point that I was trying to make is that we need more of these built-in checks and assertions, even if they mean that the system isn't running at its maximum potential efficiency. I think that software development practices (especially in the financial industry) have gravitated too far towards speed (in computing and executing actions) and not enough towards safety (e.g. doing some meta-analysis and determining if the computed actions make sense given higher level trends).
lazyjones 14y ago
The article tries to make a point and then at the end evades the conclusion: > The only real solution is to acknowledge that computer programs are going to fail and try to minimize the damage they can cause in advance. [the best way to do this is to not use the software in question at all] No, the only real solution is to provide a meaningful warranty with software (rather than typical "no warranty" clauses). Regulation can enforce this and the price will have to be paid by the customer. We have put up with these crappy licenses for decades and the result is the buggy mess we have now and no way for customers to demand a working product. Mistakes will still be made, but they shouldn't harm the customer more than the vendor. http://mil-embedded.com/articles/software-warranties-new-era/ http://mil-embedded.com/articles/software-warranties-new-era...
- aneth4 14y ago
  How often have you really encountered such buggy software that's cause you significant harm as a consumer? I've had annoyances and had to get refunds, though rarely and it's hardly ever caused any significant loss. No way for customers to demand a working product? Which products don't work? How does consumer choice and refunds for completely broken software not take care of this? The software referenced in this article was mostly built in house, perhaps some with enterprise licensing which you can be sure included negotiations covering reliability. Regulation is not the answer. Software is just fine.
  - lazyjones 14y ago
    Vulnerabilities in widely-used software (e.g. Windows, MSIE) were often fixed much too late, so the customer was at a risk or had to use 3rd party software at an additional cost just to compensate for them. Botnets that exist only because of these vulnerabilities put every business on the web at risk. Software is just as "fine" as any other product where no accountability exists.
    - learc83 14y ago
      How do you provide a warranty against someone actively trying to destroy something? Doors don't have guarantees against someone kicking them in. Cars aren't covered against someone putting sugar in the gas tank. What counts as a vulnerability? How can a regulatory body possibly decide what was a "vulnerability" they should have known about and what was something unforeseeable? I guarantee you there isn't always clear line between the two. What about when the vulnerability is exploited by a government who has greater resources than the software vendor? Does Microsoft have to pay out on a claim when damage is caused because a certificate is forged by the US government?
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
Quequau 14y ago
Recently I have been using SPARK and it's a pretty different development mindset than the embedded C that I had been used to. It makes me wonder if other development areas could benefit from adopting some of this mindset and discipline. For example, just to take a random example of Java or Python, what would it look like to create a strict subset of language features which allowed for formally provable code and to create a static analysis tool which could achieve it. I realize that this sort of thing isn't for many developers or many sorts of projects. However, I would like to see more folks taking the best parts of High Integrity Software development and bringing it out to the wider world.
- rwmj 14y ago
  Link to SPARK programming language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%...
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  Isn't that the idea behind functional programming?
- TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
  Isn't that the idea behind functional programming?
nopassrecover 14y ago
Steve Yegge wrote about this recently: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4365255 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4365255
da02 14y ago
People run the World: How scared should we be that so many of them [insert pet peeve]. Mine is: ...will vote for war and more spending.
michaelochurch 14y ago
It's "bad" because of three factors: (1) complexity, (2) inadequate motivation, (3) lack of understanding. First, complexity. Bridges aren't doing several million operations per second. They either bear the weight or they don't. They handle a known temperature range. If it can function at -50 F and 120 F, then it can handle the typical 65 F day. With a bridge, people put a lot of work into solving a simple problem extremely well and reliably. Software can be developed this way (Unix philosophy) but most software isn't. Small programs are written to solve problems well, but often invisibly; large-program methodologies exist to get promotions for higher-ups. There are few things in the world like software, which is pure logic. We don't have the tools to understand the complexity, and what tools we do have are often used to write more complex software, not understand the software we have (see: IDEs and their "four wheel drive problem" of getting people stuck in more inaccessible places.) Second, a lot of "software engineers" aren't very good and don't have the incentives and leeway to get better. That requires lifelong learning and professionalism in the true sense of the word. We're not a profession. Many things define a profession, but some salient traits of professions are: (1) an ethical ruleset that supersedes managerial authority-- not only are you allowed to refuse your manager on ethical grounds, but you have to do so; "I was just following orders" is not an excuse-- and (2) an expectation and allowance that the professional will dedicate half (~20 hours per week) her working time to continuing education, networking, and other varieties of "off-meter" work that will never occur in a typical manager/subordinate context because they benefit the professional's long-term development rather than the manager's parochial goals, (3) a very high degree of autonomy in work regarding social-bullshit protocols, but with very strong restrictions on the things that matter (i.e. no one sets working hours or vacation limits over a research professor, but if he steals another's work or publishes results he knows to be false, it's career-ending). None of these apply to software engineering. (1) If you disagree with your boss about how things should be done on ethical grounds related to software quality or intellectual honesty, you don't have an appeal process. You just get fired. (2) Most software engineers, if they want to keep learning, have to do it on their own time; hence, the stagnation that sets in for all but the most energetic and ambitious. (3) Nope. Here, the software industry looks more like middle-middle class white-collar culture (show up at certain times, take orders) than upper-middle-class professionalism. The salaries are often professional level, but work conditions are merely white-collar. In a truly professional environment, manager-as-SPOF is avoided like the plague and people have genuine incentives to do good work, not just enough work to appease the manager. The manager still has some power and influence, but the role is more like a graduate advisor than an overseer. Also, professionals are encouraged to build lifelong reputations and seek visibility. (In a typical software company, trying to do this gets you the smear of a careerist and a "socialite".) Professional environments motivate people to do their best work. Merely white-collar environments don't. The third issue is that we simply don't have a good understanding of software. This may be derived from the two above: complexity and lack of professionalism. Or it may result from something else entirely. We know that, theoretically speaking, "it's impossible to reason about code" (cf. Halting Problem). Well, my response invariably is that that's correct: it's impossible to reason about arbitrary code. But we shouldn't be writing arbitrary code. Ever. We should write simple code that doesn't rely on extremely high-level mathematical or conceptual insight (which we model as non-computational "genius", though I have no interest in getting sidetracked into the debate of whether we are or are not computers) to understand. I think individual people are good at writing software. People don't usually set out to write "arbitrary code". There are many individual software engineers who (1) use only as much complexity as they can handle, and (2) act professionally in spite of the lack of incentives or requirements ensuring it. Which means that small software can be good. What I like about the Unix philosophy and small-program philosophy is that it enables islands of quality to exist, and eventually bridges between those islands, which can lead to generally decent systems even though it's GRAI (generally recognized as impossible) to have high quality in an entire codebase. Systems design is all about accepting the possibility of failure amid complexity. It's about using small components that do one thing really well and interchangeable parts, not single-program mudballs. Engineers get this. Managers, who conflate bigness (cf. interview questions like "what's the largest team you've ever managed?" and metrics like kLoC) with success, generally don't. The problem is that, once a program has a certain number of hands pass over it, it turns to shit. Even if the original code was good, entropy sets in at some point. One bad apple spoils the barrel, and a "bad apple" doesn't have to be a bad programmer. It could be a skilled programmer who hasn't had a promotion in 4 years and no longer gives a shit. The reason why big-program methodologies generally produce legacy mudballs is that it's just impossible to prevent the "one bad apple" problem from corrupting the whole program.
kitsune_ 14y ago
Holy crap, The Atlantic has gone down hill in the past few years. It feels like they try to become the next Huffington Post. A couple of years ago it felt like a serious competitor to magazines like The New Yorker or The Economist. Then they rebranded themselves from The Atlantic Monthly to The Atlantic and started their "social media revolution". This is an incredibly shoddy article, it even closes with an absolutely brain-dead "what if"... the way average high school students close their essays.
- tjic 14y ago
  You've hit the nail right on the head. I'm a huge believer in the free market, but the economics of journalism really do seem to be pushing a lot of serious periodicals into a crappy direction. Salon was never excellent, but it was good at times. Now it's utter crap. Slate was pretty good, now it's sliding fast. The Atlantic? Yep, just as you say. Most of these places are ditching the "serious researched journalism" and even the "serious political opinion pieces" and going with fluffy bloggy chit-chatty crap. "Round tables" are getting more an more popular, especially round tables that are just emotional reactions to lifestyle news. Four women discussing birth control. Five guys talking about Breaking Bad (Slate: I'm looking at you for BOTH of these). And now the Atlantic is headed down the huffpo route. All markets "clear" at some price and some volume. It may just be an unfortunate fact that in the Internet age the market for real journalism clears at $0 for 0 volume. Again, my philosophical / political inclination is to deny this, to say that there's never a market failure, that everyone can always buy the magical pony they want at a price that sounds fair...but journalism seems to be giving me really good reasons to not say that.
  - pavel_lishin 14y ago
    > I'm a huge believer in the free market, but the economics of journalism really do seem to be pushing a lot of serious periodicals into a crappy direction. To throw out a glib generalization, it seems that the free market is best at producing things people want, not necessarily things people need.
stcredzero 14y ago
So, here's the unpleasant, unspoken, often subliminal truth about lots of enterprise software. It's supposed to be about automation to increase efficiency. In reality, it's often largely about control. Software enforces a certain workflow and can be used to allow or disallow certain actions. It's a way to enforce the procedures in the 3 ring binder. One recurring pattern I've seen in enterprise software projects is separation between users and the developers. Often, there is this game of "telephone" where the user's managers talk to a manager above them, then there might be another layer above before information can start heading back down to the devs. Often, one is strictly forbidden to talk to users, except in exceptional situations. This is because the project is largely about control, so restrictions on communication with the users is necessary, since many of the unstated goals have to do with the frustration of the user's wishes. What's even worse is when this power of control is used in political infighting.
- flogic 14y ago
  The trick is to find way to knife through a couple of those layers of management to the managers who actually know what should be done. You really can't ask most users or managers because they're just not helpful.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    I found that's not so straightforward for consultants like me, because the manager that brings you in is embedded in the "layers," directly in the information path. People-skills were not my forté.
    - flogic 14y ago
      We got lucky. I got hired into a project that started out in research which had/has a very loose management. It's the only part of the org structure where shit flows uphill. That gave us quite a bit of leeway in terms of establishing a cross cutting team. We've since been transferred but so fair the culture seems to be holding.

73 points by cwan 14y ago

How many of the business processes that software manages were better before the software took over? MOST companies I've seen inside were a hodge-podge of bad/missing/sloppy paperwork and poorly documented or even understood guidelines and policies. Software amplifies everything about a business, both the good and the bad. The downside is that because so much is networked today, something "going wrong" can have much larger consequences (and faster) than a wrong decision carried out on paper 30 years ago.

SoftwareMaven 14y ago
While this is definitely true, the amount of damage those paper-based systems was limited. As the Knight Capital case showed, it is possible to lose millions of dollars a minute with poor software. That would not have been possible with human trades.
- patio11 14y ago
  That would not have been possible with human trades Tell this to Mizuho Securities, where a human sold 620,000 shares at 1 yen instead of 1 share at 620,000 yen. ~$300 million loss in a single botched trade. Humans at both Mizuho and the Tokyo Stock Exchange saw the trade and all declined to intervene because they assumed they had insufficient authority to countermand the trader.
mattmanser 14y ago
Come off it, you take an old school accounts department, put in any accounting software and boom, massive ball ache solved. The majority of the accounts department suddenly turns into credit control. There's a very good reason why the enterprise software industry sells billions. Because they save 10s, 100s or 1000s of billions. For custom software, that's what a good consultant/PM is actually for, to translate 'what we thought we were doing' into 'what we're actually doing' into the final product of 'what it should actually do'. I once worked for a company that sold project and document management software. The strangest call I ever got was from a small 20 person company phoning us up and saying 'What is Sue supposed to do now, she doesn't have anything to do'. That's what you bought the software for, to save money. Added bonus, management gets massive strategic oversight. But in the end it's up to them to use it.
- joshmlewis 14y ago
  Example of a company saving a trillion dollars because of software?
  - sp332 14y ago
    >the enterprise software industry Not just one company. IM apps alone may have saved trillions.
    - mgkimsal 14y ago
      But... how much waste have they introduced as well? I think a lot of old 'water cooler' talk may have been amplified by IM, solitaire, email, etc - much harder to visibly detect the amount of waste introduced by these technologies, although I'm sure they've saved a lot as well.
      - pavel_lishin 14y ago
        Sure, but now I don't have to go to the water cooler. Talking about a movie with the coworker down the hall is now a parallel process that takes maybe two minutes of total typing time, and while I'm not typing at him, I'm working on other things. Compare to the water cooler, where it might take me a whole minute just to walk down there. Then we sit around and shoot the shit for maybe five minutes. Total time spent, let's call it seven minutes during which nothing got done except some simian grooming.
quanticle 14y ago
Software amplifies everything about a business, both the good and the bad. The downside is that because so much is networked today, something "going wrong" can have much larger consequences (and faster) than a wrong decision carried out on paper 30 years ago. I think that's the distinction James Kwak is trying to make. He isn't saying that the business processes (in this case, buying and selling stocks) was especially clean before software. He is saying that software makes the system faster (amplifying the effects of a poor business process, as you say) while removing a human buffer. When a human order-taker sees an unexpected zero on an order sheet he or she has enough common sense to ask the person handing it to him or her whether the figure is correct. Most financial software doesn't have that "common sense", so it's easy for inadvertent slip-ups or programming errors to cascade into firm-ending chain reactions. Obviously, the solution to this isn't to go back to slow and inefficient human processes. I think the solution is to continue doing what we're starting to see today - software that asks whether we're sure we know what we're doing when it sees a variable that's out of line. In addition, I think that many software systems are way too monolithic. That is, every component of the system implicitly trusts every other component. I would like to see software broken up into smaller communicating components, where each component can make assertions about the input and output of other components, and components can fail without bringing down the whole system. The system I've seen come closest to this is Erlang's OTP, but there's no particular reason for that model to be limited to Erlang.

tomp 14y ago

> And perhaps the most mission-critical of all mission-critical applications are the ones that underpin the securities markets where a large share of the world's wealth is locked up. Really? I don't even consider the stock market software as mission critical. I mean, Jane Street's software is written in OCaml... Mission critical is software that controls lives. Airplane, spaceship, heart pacer, ...

ucee054 14y ago
You have your definitions confused. Critical software leads to people's death when it goes wrong. Mission critical software leads to the mission's death when it goes wrong. Where the mission is usually "make money".
- 69_years_and 14y ago
  Unless of course ones mission is to fly an aircraft, control a power station, connect a phone call, keep someone's heart beating... Just words... The above commenter has a point. Mission critical is also about the effective control of a physical process just as much as it can be about smooth flow of money (which is just another process). In some ways the article title is misleading as it touches on only a fraction of the software that actually runs the world - there is a shit load of software actually running the world (incl. making physical stuff go) and from what I can see most of it does a decent job, in general (of course there is always room for improvement). Disclosure: I'm a process control programmer so am biased in my view as to what actually 'runs the world' :). Taking nothing away from the money processing side of the business.
  - ucee054 14y ago
    Intersect("Critical","Mission Critical") != "Mission Critical" Intersect("Critical","Mission Critical") == "Critical"

wizard_2 14y ago

Humans are the resilience in any system. No system is ever perfect, and no system will ever be. I think we'll be fine.

quanticle 14y ago
Not necessarily. Part of Kwak's problem with software is that it is taking humans out of the system. For example, the stock trading software that runs a modern exchange replaces the human traders who used to exchange physical slips of paper. A human trader can look at a particular trade, say, "Hmmm, that doesn't look right," and ask for confirmation. A computer can't (in the general case). So, if humans are the resilience in any system, what happens when you start taking humans out?
- yummyfajitas 14y ago
  A computer can't (in the general case). They do this all the time. There are quite a few pre and post-trade checks enforced by the exchanges. The net result is that if things go wildly wrong, trading will most likely stop. This is part of the reason why Knight Capital's implosion had such a minimal effect on anything besides Knight's shareholders.
  - quanticle 14y ago
    That's true, and the point that I was trying to make is that we need more of these built-in checks and assertions, even if they mean that the system isn't running at its maximum potential efficiency. I think that software development practices (especially in the financial industry) have gravitated too far towards speed (in computing and executing actions) and not enough towards safety (e.g. doing some meta-analysis and determining if the computed actions make sense given higher level trends).

lazyjones 14y ago

The article tries to make a point and then at the end evades the conclusion: > The only real solution is to acknowledge that computer programs are going to fail and try to minimize the damage they can cause in advance. [the best way to do this is to not use the software in question at all] No, the only real solution is to provide a meaningful warranty with software (rather than typical "no warranty" clauses). Regulation can enforce this and the price will have to be paid by the customer. We have put up with these crappy licenses for decades and the result is the buggy mess we have now and no way for customers to demand a working product. Mistakes will still be made, but they shouldn't harm the customer more than the vendor. http://mil-embedded.com/articles/software-warranties-new-era/ http://mil-embedded.com/articles/software-warranties-new-era...

aneth4 14y ago
How often have you really encountered such buggy software that's cause you significant harm as a consumer? I've had annoyances and had to get refunds, though rarely and it's hardly ever caused any significant loss. No way for customers to demand a working product? Which products don't work? How does consumer choice and refunds for completely broken software not take care of this? The software referenced in this article was mostly built in house, perhaps some with enterprise licensing which you can be sure included negotiations covering reliability. Regulation is not the answer. Software is just fine.
- lazyjones 14y ago
  Vulnerabilities in widely-used software (e.g. Windows, MSIE) were often fixed much too late, so the customer was at a risk or had to use 3rd party software at an additional cost just to compensate for them. Botnets that exist only because of these vulnerabilities put every business on the web at risk. Software is just as "fine" as any other product where no accountability exists.
  - learc83 14y ago
    How do you provide a warranty against someone actively trying to destroy something? Doors don't have guarantees against someone kicking them in. Cars aren't covered against someone putting sugar in the gas tank. What counts as a vulnerability? How can a regulatory body possibly decide what was a "vulnerability" they should have known about and what was something unforeseeable? I guarantee you there isn't always clear line between the two. What about when the vulnerability is exploited by a government who has greater resources than the software vendor? Does Microsoft have to pay out on a claim when damage is caused because a certificate is forged by the US government?

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

Quequau 14y ago

Recently I have been using SPARK and it's a pretty different development mindset than the embedded C that I had been used to. It makes me wonder if other development areas could benefit from adopting some of this mindset and discipline. For example, just to take a random example of Java or Python, what would it look like to create a strict subset of language features which allowed for formally provable code and to create a static analysis tool which could achieve it. I realize that this sort of thing isn't for many developers or many sorts of projects. However, I would like to see more folks taking the best parts of High Integrity Software development and bringing it out to the wider world.

rwmj 14y ago
Link to SPARK programming language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPARK_%28programming_language%...
TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
Isn't that the idea behind functional programming?
TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
Isn't that the idea behind functional programming?

nopassrecover 14y ago

Steve Yegge wrote about this recently: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4365255 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4365255

da02 14y ago

People run the World: How scared should we be that so many of them [insert pet peeve]. Mine is: ...will vote for war and more spending.

michaelochurch 14y ago

It's "bad" because of three factors: (1) complexity, (2) inadequate motivation, (3) lack of understanding. First, complexity. Bridges aren't doing several million operations per second. They either bear the weight or they don't. They handle a known temperature range. If it can function at -50 F and 120 F, then it can handle the typical 65 F day. With a bridge, people put a lot of work into solving a simple problem extremely well and reliably. Software can be developed this way (Unix philosophy) but most software isn't. Small programs are written to solve problems well, but often invisibly; large-program methodologies exist to get promotions for higher-ups. There are few things in the world like software, which is pure logic. We don't have the tools to understand the complexity, and what tools we do have are often used to write more complex software, not understand the software we have (see: IDEs and their "four wheel drive problem" of getting people stuck in more inaccessible places.) Second, a lot of "software engineers" aren't very good and don't have the incentives and leeway to get better. That requires lifelong learning and professionalism in the true sense of the word. We're not a profession. Many things define a profession, but some salient traits of professions are: (1) an ethical ruleset that supersedes managerial authority-- not only are you allowed to refuse your manager on ethical grounds, but you have to do so; "I was just following orders" is not an excuse-- and (2) an expectation and allowance that the professional will dedicate half (~20 hours per week) her working time to continuing education, networking, and other varieties of "off-meter" work that will never occur in a typical manager/subordinate context because they benefit the professional's long-term development rather than the manager's parochial goals, (3) a very high degree of autonomy in work regarding social-bullshit protocols, but with very strong restrictions on the things that matter (i.e. no one sets working hours or vacation limits over a research professor, but if he steals another's work or publishes results he knows to be false, it's career-ending). None of these apply to software engineering. (1) If you disagree with your boss about how things should be done on ethical grounds related to software quality or intellectual honesty, you don't have an appeal process. You just get fired. (2) Most software engineers, if they want to keep learning, have to do it on their own time; hence, the stagnation that sets in for all but the most energetic and ambitious. (3) Nope. Here, the software industry looks more like middle-middle class white-collar culture (show up at certain times, take orders) than upper-middle-class professionalism. The salaries are often professional level, but work conditions are merely white-collar. In a truly professional environment, manager-as-SPOF is avoided like the plague and people have genuine incentives to do good work, not just enough work to appease the manager. The manager still has some power and influence, but the role is more like a graduate advisor than an overseer. Also, professionals are encouraged to build lifelong reputations and seek visibility. (In a typical software company, trying to do this gets you the smear of a careerist and a "socialite".) Professional environments motivate people to do their best work. Merely white-collar environments don't. The third issue is that we simply don't have a good understanding of software. This may be derived from the two above: complexity and lack of professionalism. Or it may result from something else entirely. We know that, theoretically speaking, "it's impossible to reason about code" (cf. Halting Problem). Well, my response invariably is that that's correct: it's impossible to reason about arbitrary code. But we shouldn't be writing arbitrary code. Ever. We should write simple code that doesn't rely on extremely high-level mathematical or conceptual insight (which we model as non-computational "genius", though I have no interest in getting sidetracked into the debate of whether we are or are not computers) to understand. I think individual people are good at writing software. People don't usually set out to write "arbitrary code". There are many individual software engineers who (1) use only as much complexity as they can handle, and (2) act professionally in spite of the lack of incentives or requirements ensuring it. Which means that small software can be good. What I like about the Unix philosophy and small-program philosophy is that it enables islands of quality to exist, and eventually bridges between those islands, which can lead to generally decent systems even though it's GRAI (generally recognized as impossible) to have high quality in an entire codebase. Systems design is all about accepting the possibility of failure amid complexity. It's about using small components that do one thing really well and interchangeable parts, not single-program mudballs. Engineers get this. Managers, who conflate bigness (cf. interview questions like "what's the largest team you've ever managed?" and metrics like kLoC) with success, generally don't. The problem is that, once a program has a certain number of hands pass over it, it turns to shit. Even if the original code was good, entropy sets in at some point. One bad apple spoils the barrel, and a "bad apple" doesn't have to be a bad programmer. It could be a skilled programmer who hasn't had a promotion in 4 years and no longer gives a shit. The reason why big-program methodologies generally produce legacy mudballs is that it's just impossible to prevent the "one bad apple" problem from corrupting the whole program.

kitsune_ 14y ago

Holy crap, The Atlantic has gone down hill in the past few years. It feels like they try to become the next Huffington Post. A couple of years ago it felt like a serious competitor to magazines like The New Yorker or The Economist. Then they rebranded themselves from The Atlantic Monthly to The Atlantic and started their "social media revolution". This is an incredibly shoddy article, it even closes with an absolutely brain-dead "what if"... the way average high school students close their essays.

tjic 14y ago
You've hit the nail right on the head. I'm a huge believer in the free market, but the economics of journalism really do seem to be pushing a lot of serious periodicals into a crappy direction. Salon was never excellent, but it was good at times. Now it's utter crap. Slate was pretty good, now it's sliding fast. The Atlantic? Yep, just as you say. Most of these places are ditching the "serious researched journalism" and even the "serious political opinion pieces" and going with fluffy bloggy chit-chatty crap. "Round tables" are getting more an more popular, especially round tables that are just emotional reactions to lifestyle news. Four women discussing birth control. Five guys talking about Breaking Bad (Slate: I'm looking at you for BOTH of these). And now the Atlantic is headed down the huffpo route. All markets "clear" at some price and some volume. It may just be an unfortunate fact that in the Internet age the market for real journalism clears at $0 for 0 volume. Again, my philosophical / political inclination is to deny this, to say that there's never a market failure, that everyone can always buy the magical pony they want at a price that sounds fair...but journalism seems to be giving me really good reasons to not say that.
- pavel_lishin 14y ago
  > I'm a huge believer in the free market, but the economics of journalism really do seem to be pushing a lot of serious periodicals into a crappy direction. To throw out a glib generalization, it seems that the free market is best at producing things people want, not necessarily things people need.

stcredzero 14y ago

So, here's the unpleasant, unspoken, often subliminal truth about lots of enterprise software. It's supposed to be about automation to increase efficiency. In reality, it's often largely about control. Software enforces a certain workflow and can be used to allow or disallow certain actions. It's a way to enforce the procedures in the 3 ring binder. One recurring pattern I've seen in enterprise software projects is separation between users and the developers. Often, there is this game of "telephone" where the user's managers talk to a manager above them, then there might be another layer above before information can start heading back down to the devs. Often, one is strictly forbidden to talk to users, except in exceptional situations. This is because the project is largely about control, so restrictions on communication with the users is necessary, since many of the unstated goals have to do with the frustration of the user's wishes. What's even worse is when this power of control is used in political infighting.

flogic 14y ago
The trick is to find way to knife through a couple of those layers of management to the managers who actually know what should be done. You really can't ask most users or managers because they're just not helpful.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  I found that's not so straightforward for consultants like me, because the manager that brings you in is embedded in the "layers," directly in the information path. People-skills were not my forté.
  - flogic 14y ago
    We got lucky. I got hired into a project that started out in research which had/has a very loose management. It's the only part of the org structure where shit flows uphill. That gave us quite a bit of leeway in terms of establishing a cross cutting team. We've since been transferred but so fair the culture seems to be holding.