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Grinds my gears to see every discussion of college ROI look at tuition and majors, but always the "Average" or "typical" student, NEVER segmented by, e.g. socio

Grinds my gears to see every discussion of college ROI look at tuition and majors, but always the "Average" or "typical" student, NEVER segmented by, e.g. socioeconomic background. If you can afford college, it is absolutely worth it to go to college. For a variety of reasons, ROI not top of the list. If it may be hard for you to afford college, then it's a better question to ask.

smitty1e 2y ago
1. Doing something practical ahead of college is always in order. 2. As someone trying to finish the PhD, there is zero ROI, due to closeness to retirement. If genuine intellectual curiosity were not the driver, it would truly be a waste of time.
- HPMOR 2y ago
  As a YC backed college drop-out, I think there is enormous character development value in a college education. It is a great segue into real/high-value commercial endeavors. It teaches you so much more than "something practical". It's not about the formal pedagogy per-se, but the community and learning to navigate it.
  - butterlettuce 2y ago
    > I think there is enormous character development value in a college education. It is a great segue into real/high-value commercial endeavors. It's a great segue into real/high-value commercial endeavors if you're lucky. For others not so fortunate, they graduate into a Starbucks barista role.
    - smitty1e 2y ago
      Was there some shame in being a barista? I'm just a lowly keymasher, but I have a college classmate who is a US Senator. Do I envy him? Why, no; no, I do not.
      - Avicebron 2y ago
        > Was there some shame in being a barista? Does this job have compensation/benefits equal to being a lowly keymasher?
        smitty1e 2y ago
        Well, no. But that is a different question than the one of shame. Barista itself is probably not a full career path, but there is nothing wrong with it as a waypoint.
        Avicebron 2y ago
        Well, using Barista as a proxy for any job that a keymasher might regard as "nothing wrong with it as a waypoint", I guess a person might feel shame after long periods of time trying to get out of that waypoint, and not being able to because they're losing ground to recent graduates and the regular churn of the market looking for people with "more experience". So yeah, I can see how someone would feel shame in that even if they didn't publicly admit it. An interesting question for you from here is, what do you think about the people who are in "nothing wrong with it as a waypoint" jobs?
        smitty1e 2y ago
        The job is but one dimension of life, and it's really not my task to judge anyone based solely upon their waypoint of the moment. What else are they doing? Do they have goals? Are they socially connected and building up those around them? You might see someone, for example, busking on the corner and jump to a wildly erroneous conclusion about them... https://x.com/bluezharp/status/1822666701814608086 https://x.com/bluezharp/status/1822666701814608086
        Avicebron 2y ago
        > The job is but one dimension of life, and it's really not my task to judge anyone based solely upon their waypoint of the moment. You're not engaging with the real and acute problem of, 1) keypusher gets to look at barista and say "oof, no medical insurance, no investments, living paycheck to paycheck" must be their waypoint, hopefully at 10 years deep into that barista career they get their break as a senior ruby engineer, good thing they were "just at a waypoint" 2). > What else are they doing? Do they have goals? Are they socially connected and building up those around them? Are they healthy? Have they been able to maintain the same level of fitness as someone who works 4 hours a week writing internal tooling vs dodging traffic and dealing with an equally financially unstable manager screwing their ability to pay rent the next week? Really smitty
femiagbabiaka 2y ago
I dropped out of college after stumbling my way through several majors and I still consider it to be a formative experience. But I have another problem with this: American primary and secondary education is terrible. College is the first time so many get exposed to things that are critical: the classics, high level math, statistics, etc. Making college less necessary starts with improving primary and secondary education.
- jimbob45 2y ago
  College is the first time so many get exposed to things that are critical: the classics, high level math, statistics, etc. Are you saying Americans don’t take stats, calc, or English lit in high school?
  - fallingknife 2y ago
    Yes they teach all that in high school here
  - cactacea 2y ago
    Yes
  - hijp 2y ago
    My friend somehow made it through to senior year without ever taking a math class. To graduate the counselor put them in the cafeteria serving lunch, which somehow counted towards a math credit. Public school in Hawaiʻi man.
  - leereeves 2y ago
    Most Americans don't even take stats or calc in college.
  - femiagbabiaka 2y ago
    If you go to a quality private school, certainly. In public school? Most don't even get close, and the standards get lower by the year.
lo_zamoyski 2y ago
> If you can afford college, it is absolutely worth it to go to college. For a variety of reasons, ROI not top of the list. This is complicated by the fact that the mission of the university and of education in general has become muddled. There is also an intellectual crisis that plagues academe (like the silos separating the liberal arts and the sciences). The two intertwined and at times competing missions are that of educating the person and that of career preparation. Arguably, the latter is where the bulk of energy is going; I don't know where you can locate the former, in general. So, in that light, you have to ask: are universities the best option for everyone... a) from the perspective of job training? b) from the perspective of education? Not everyone is called to go to university.
jemmyw 2y ago
That's not true. I afforded it. It probably had a positive ROI, though it's extremely hard to tell. But I regret going, it wasn't the experience I needed or was looking for. Talking to some others later in life, I wish I had taken a different path. Going straight into work would have been far better. I don't lament how my life turned out or anything, but there were a couple of decisions I made, including uni, where I nearly went another way, but followed a path of least resistance instead. Just a small bit of advice would have really helped. My parents didn't step up in that regard.

smitty1e 2y ago

1. Doing something practical ahead of college is always in order. 2. As someone trying to finish the PhD, there is zero ROI, due to closeness to retirement. If genuine intellectual curiosity were not the driver, it would truly be a waste of time.

HPMOR 2y ago
As a YC backed college drop-out, I think there is enormous character development value in a college education. It is a great segue into real/high-value commercial endeavors. It teaches you so much more than "something practical". It's not about the formal pedagogy per-se, but the community and learning to navigate it.
- butterlettuce 2y ago
  > I think there is enormous character development value in a college education. It is a great segue into real/high-value commercial endeavors. It's a great segue into real/high-value commercial endeavors if you're lucky. For others not so fortunate, they graduate into a Starbucks barista role.
  - smitty1e 2y ago
    Was there some shame in being a barista? I'm just a lowly keymasher, but I have a college classmate who is a US Senator. Do I envy him? Why, no; no, I do not.
    - Avicebron 2y ago
      > Was there some shame in being a barista? Does this job have compensation/benefits equal to being a lowly keymasher?
      - smitty1e 2y ago
        Well, no. But that is a different question than the one of shame. Barista itself is probably not a full career path, but there is nothing wrong with it as a waypoint.
        Avicebron 2y ago
        Well, using Barista as a proxy for any job that a keymasher might regard as "nothing wrong with it as a waypoint", I guess a person might feel shame after long periods of time trying to get out of that waypoint, and not being able to because they're losing ground to recent graduates and the regular churn of the market looking for people with "more experience". So yeah, I can see how someone would feel shame in that even if they didn't publicly admit it. An interesting question for you from here is, what do you think about the people who are in "nothing wrong with it as a waypoint" jobs?
        smitty1e 2y ago
        The job is but one dimension of life, and it's really not my task to judge anyone based solely upon their waypoint of the moment. What else are they doing? Do they have goals? Are they socially connected and building up those around them? You might see someone, for example, busking on the corner and jump to a wildly erroneous conclusion about them... https://x.com/bluezharp/status/1822666701814608086 https://x.com/bluezharp/status/1822666701814608086
        Avicebron 2y ago
        > The job is but one dimension of life, and it's really not my task to judge anyone based solely upon their waypoint of the moment. You're not engaging with the real and acute problem of, 1) keypusher gets to look at barista and say "oof, no medical insurance, no investments, living paycheck to paycheck" must be their waypoint, hopefully at 10 years deep into that barista career they get their break as a senior ruby engineer, good thing they were "just at a waypoint" 2). > What else are they doing? Do they have goals? Are they socially connected and building up those around them? Are they healthy? Have they been able to maintain the same level of fitness as someone who works 4 hours a week writing internal tooling vs dodging traffic and dealing with an equally financially unstable manager screwing their ability to pay rent the next week? Really smitty

femiagbabiaka 2y ago

I dropped out of college after stumbling my way through several majors and I still consider it to be a formative experience. But I have another problem with this: American primary and secondary education is terrible. College is the first time so many get exposed to things that are critical: the classics, high level math, statistics, etc. Making college less necessary starts with improving primary and secondary education.

jimbob45 2y ago
College is the first time so many get exposed to things that are critical: the classics, high level math, statistics, etc. Are you saying Americans don’t take stats, calc, or English lit in high school?
- fallingknife 2y ago
  Yes they teach all that in high school here
- cactacea 2y ago
  Yes
- hijp 2y ago
  My friend somehow made it through to senior year without ever taking a math class. To graduate the counselor put them in the cafeteria serving lunch, which somehow counted towards a math credit. Public school in Hawaiʻi man.
- leereeves 2y ago
  Most Americans don't even take stats or calc in college.
- femiagbabiaka 2y ago
  If you go to a quality private school, certainly. In public school? Most don't even get close, and the standards get lower by the year.

lo_zamoyski 2y ago

> If you can afford college, it is absolutely worth it to go to college. For a variety of reasons, ROI not top of the list. This is complicated by the fact that the mission of the university and of education in general has become muddled. There is also an intellectual crisis that plagues academe (like the silos separating the liberal arts and the sciences). The two intertwined and at times competing missions are that of educating the person and that of career preparation. Arguably, the latter is where the bulk of energy is going; I don't know where you can locate the former, in general. So, in that light, you have to ask: are universities the best option for everyone... a) from the perspective of job training? b) from the perspective of education? Not everyone is called to go to university.

jemmyw 2y ago

That's not true. I afforded it. It probably had a positive ROI, though it's extremely hard to tell. But I regret going, it wasn't the experience I needed or was looking for. Talking to some others later in life, I wish I had taken a different path. Going straight into work would have been far better. I don't lament how my life turned out or anything, but there were a couple of decisions I made, including uni, where I nearly went another way, but followed a path of least resistance instead. Just a small bit of advice would have really helped. My parents didn't step up in that regard.