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there's something disturbing about learning just being reduced to an ROI calculation. Is there no non-monetary value in the knowledge and skills? If it doesn't

there's something disturbing about learning just being reduced to an ROI calculation. Is there no non-monetary value in the knowledge and skills? If it doesn't make us money it's not worth it?

fallingknife 2y ago
This is a useless statement unless you provide an alternative metric to decide how much education is worth having.
branperr 2y ago
Keep in mind some people can't afford to make bad financial decisions.
disambiguation 2y ago
Are they giving liberal arts educations away for free? No? > If it doesn't make us money it's not worth it? By definition, that makes it a luxury.
logical_proof 2y ago
At the ridiculous cost of attendance at a traditional university a love for learning is not a good value proposition. Someone who loves learning would be better served doing self led study with occasional tutoring. Costs will be much lower and the education far more specialized. Of course I wouldn’t want a medical professional to diagnose my hypothetical cancer with a trade school education either. As with a great many things, YMMV.
- markus_zhang 2y ago
  100% this. Many non experimental topics can be self taught with the help of paid tutors -- I'm sure university tutors are happy to give you tutorials if you pay them cash. Plus all colleges have very stringent prerequisites rules and tons of BS classes one has to take. Some colleges have independent studies, which are much better, but you still have to go through the prerequisites gate and other annoyances, plus it's still expensive.
mquander 2y ago
Is there no non-monetary value in the other things that someone might be doing between the ages of 18 and 22, which may also involve learning?
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
This. I'm old, but to me even ignoring the learning a huge part was getting to start over with a new friend group with way healthier dynamics than high school. Changed my understanding of friendship.
markus_zhang 2y ago
With open courseware and other tools, dedicated individuals have even less motivation to go through a college just for knowledge. And you don't have to take any class you are not interested in. Of course this doesn't apply to topics that require a lot of equipments. College is largely for certification and connections IMO. Both are basically just financial concerns.
xp84 2y ago
Knowledge and skills have great value! Yes, we should all pursue them with enthusiasm, even for their own sake! But I'd argue that colleges are purporting to sell 'knowledge and skills' -- at a markup somewhere between hilarious and absurd. Knowledge and skills are absolutely free for the taking now. Academia has zero claim to them. There are more insightful lectures on YouTube in ANY subject area than you'll hear in 99% of college classrooms. Libraries full of books anyone can read on any subject. And for someone who wants those ideas organized into a course of study, you can just download a syllabus for a college class, even buy all the textbooks, and pay a couple thousand a year, compared to the $20,000+ the average college tries to charge. For a customized and up-to-date syllabus, ask an AI to update an old one with the latest concepts and discoveries. So why should they charge us so much? The answer is that they are not actually selling knowledge or skills. They're just gatekeeping access to be elite, and they can't make it truly affordable because then it would lose even more of its original value. Even now, just "a college degree" barely even grants any elite status, only the Ivys and certain respected schools in niches (e.g. UCLA for film school) confer any status. For everyone else, it may get your foot in a door somewhere, serving basically just as a vague proof that you have enough perseverance to complete one annoying, long-term slog, but that door is not a door that guarantees you any prosperity anyway.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  They charge us so much, because they are selling something, and the barrier of entry to the industry is high. Prices are naturally set to the level people can afford to pay, rather than being based on how much it costs to provide the service efficiently. Some of the main benefits of institutionalized education are social. It's more acceptable to go to a college instead of spending a few years self-studying. And if you are not exceptionally motivated, the institutional pressure probably makes you study more than you would do on your own. And some fields are easier to study on your own than others. One common pitfall of studying on your own is that you may learn the content without understanding it in the right context. Each field has its own ways of thinking, its own implicit assumptions, its own approaches to things, and so on. Theoretical frameworks, if you like big pretentious words. Those things are difficult to learn without people who are already familiar with the field. Software engineering is probably one of the easiest fields for self-study, as a lot of activity happens in public in open source projects. Computer science is already much harder.
TuringNYC 2y ago
>> Is there no non-monetary value in the knowledge and skills? If it doesn't make us money it's not worth it? Not saying college isnt worth it, but knowledge and skills can be much more easily obtained via MOOCs, digital learning platforms, reading, etc. I know not everyone has the focus to do so, but that is usually because they do not look at the sheer cost of the alternative. A good way to frame the decision is -- "if you cannot learn some of this via MOOCs/Udemy/Udacity/Coursera, are you willing to pay $80k for someone to help you focus on doing it?" Separate from this is experience, relationships, teamworks, practicals/labs, etc which I think college is much better at than MOOCs/Udemy/Udacity/Coursera. I honestly wish I could have done a year or two of MOOCs/Udemy/Udacity/Coursera inbetween college so I could focus even more on experience, relationships, teamworks, practicals/labs when actually in college.
- hirvi74 2y ago
  Are you disciplined and internally motivated enough to sit down and go through all those various courses? If so, I envy you with every last fiber of my being. > "if you cannot learn some of this via MOOCs/Udemy/Udacity/Coursera, are you willing to pay $80k for someone to help you focus on doing it?" Let me tell you, when you know that the only way to pay back that 80k is with your hard earned money or your life, then the motivation is a lot easier to muster. My loans were not even half that amount, and that was still enough to put the fear of God in me.
jjmarr 2y ago
The typical student that wants to learn and gain skills self-teaches online. The reason why I am getting a degree in computer engineering is because I need it to get a job, because a degree is supposed to filter out people who don't understand how to write code at any level. I'm essentially paying for someone to grade my tests and assignments. Honestly, I think most of my courses are too easy and I'm not getting good value on the filtering side. Most of the lecture materials I pay for are plagiarized from open courses. Sometimes I find the original course. Typically my professor refactors stuff to make it less clear or add false information. If I was at a top-tier university, I might be getting knowledge I couldn't get elsewhere. But at my school the professors pretend to teach and the students pretend to learn.
- AstroBen 2y ago
  > I'm essentially paying for someone to grade my tests and assignments ever considered something like WGU if that's the case? Cheap, can be finished as fast as you want, and would likely get you past HR screening at the rate of a mid-tier uni
- eirikbakke 2y ago
  The learning materials are all online, but realistically, very few students are going to work full-time 9 months per year for 4 years doing assignments by themselves, without weekly deadlines and friends to cheer them on. If you're going to put in all that time, you might as well get the degree. And as the article points out, the time itself is what dominates the total cost--not tuition.

there's something disturbing about learning just being reduced to an ROI calculation. Is there no non-monetary value in the knowledge and skills? If it doesn't make us money it's not worth it?

fallingknife 2y ago

This is a useless statement unless you provide an alternative metric to decide how much education is worth having.

branperr 2y ago

Keep in mind some people can't afford to make bad financial decisions.

disambiguation 2y ago

Are they giving liberal arts educations away for free? No? > If it doesn't make us money it's not worth it? By definition, that makes it a luxury.

logical_proof 2y ago

At the ridiculous cost of attendance at a traditional university a love for learning is not a good value proposition. Someone who loves learning would be better served doing self led study with occasional tutoring. Costs will be much lower and the education far more specialized. Of course I wouldn’t want a medical professional to diagnose my hypothetical cancer with a trade school education either. As with a great many things, YMMV.

markus_zhang 2y ago
100% this. Many non experimental topics can be self taught with the help of paid tutors -- I'm sure university tutors are happy to give you tutorials if you pay them cash. Plus all colleges have very stringent prerequisites rules and tons of BS classes one has to take. Some colleges have independent studies, which are much better, but you still have to go through the prerequisites gate and other annoyances, plus it's still expensive.

mquander 2y ago

Is there no non-monetary value in the other things that someone might be doing between the ages of 18 and 22, which may also involve learning?

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

This. I'm old, but to me even ignoring the learning a huge part was getting to start over with a new friend group with way healthier dynamics than high school. Changed my understanding of friendship.

markus_zhang 2y ago

With open courseware and other tools, dedicated individuals have even less motivation to go through a college just for knowledge. And you don't have to take any class you are not interested in. Of course this doesn't apply to topics that require a lot of equipments. College is largely for certification and connections IMO. Both are basically just financial concerns.

xp84 2y ago

Knowledge and skills have great value! Yes, we should all pursue them with enthusiasm, even for their own sake! But I'd argue that colleges are purporting to sell 'knowledge and skills' -- at a markup somewhere between hilarious and absurd. Knowledge and skills are absolutely free for the taking now. Academia has zero claim to them. There are more insightful lectures on YouTube in ANY subject area than you'll hear in 99% of college classrooms. Libraries full of books anyone can read on any subject. And for someone who wants those ideas organized into a course of study, you can just download a syllabus for a college class, even buy all the textbooks, and pay a couple thousand a year, compared to the $20,000+ the average college tries to charge. For a customized and up-to-date syllabus, ask an AI to update an old one with the latest concepts and discoveries. So why should they charge us so much? The answer is that they are not actually selling knowledge or skills. They're just gatekeeping access to be elite, and they can't make it truly affordable because then it would lose even more of its original value. Even now, just "a college degree" barely even grants any elite status, only the Ivys and certain respected schools in niches (e.g. UCLA for film school) confer any status. For everyone else, it may get your foot in a door somewhere, serving basically just as a vague proof that you have enough perseverance to complete one annoying, long-term slog, but that door is not a door that guarantees you any prosperity anyway.

jltsiren 2y ago
They charge us so much, because they are selling something, and the barrier of entry to the industry is high. Prices are naturally set to the level people can afford to pay, rather than being based on how much it costs to provide the service efficiently. Some of the main benefits of institutionalized education are social. It's more acceptable to go to a college instead of spending a few years self-studying. And if you are not exceptionally motivated, the institutional pressure probably makes you study more than you would do on your own. And some fields are easier to study on your own than others. One common pitfall of studying on your own is that you may learn the content without understanding it in the right context. Each field has its own ways of thinking, its own implicit assumptions, its own approaches to things, and so on. Theoretical frameworks, if you like big pretentious words. Those things are difficult to learn without people who are already familiar with the field. Software engineering is probably one of the easiest fields for self-study, as a lot of activity happens in public in open source projects. Computer science is already much harder.

TuringNYC 2y ago

>> Is there no non-monetary value in the knowledge and skills? If it doesn't make us money it's not worth it? Not saying college isnt worth it, but knowledge and skills can be much more easily obtained via MOOCs, digital learning platforms, reading, etc. I know not everyone has the focus to do so, but that is usually because they do not look at the sheer cost of the alternative. A good way to frame the decision is -- "if you cannot learn some of this via MOOCs/Udemy/Udacity/Coursera, are you willing to pay $80k for someone to help you focus on doing it?" Separate from this is experience, relationships, teamworks, practicals/labs, etc which I think college is much better at than MOOCs/Udemy/Udacity/Coursera. I honestly wish I could have done a year or two of MOOCs/Udemy/Udacity/Coursera inbetween college so I could focus even more on experience, relationships, teamworks, practicals/labs when actually in college.

hirvi74 2y ago
Are you disciplined and internally motivated enough to sit down and go through all those various courses? If so, I envy you with every last fiber of my being. > "if you cannot learn some of this via MOOCs/Udemy/Udacity/Coursera, are you willing to pay $80k for someone to help you focus on doing it?" Let me tell you, when you know that the only way to pay back that 80k is with your hard earned money or your life, then the motivation is a lot easier to muster. My loans were not even half that amount, and that was still enough to put the fear of God in me.

jjmarr 2y ago

The typical student that wants to learn and gain skills self-teaches online. The reason why I am getting a degree in computer engineering is because I need it to get a job, because a degree is supposed to filter out people who don't understand how to write code at any level. I'm essentially paying for someone to grade my tests and assignments. Honestly, I think most of my courses are too easy and I'm not getting good value on the filtering side. Most of the lecture materials I pay for are plagiarized from open courses. Sometimes I find the original course. Typically my professor refactors stuff to make it less clear or add false information. If I was at a top-tier university, I might be getting knowledge I couldn't get elsewhere. But at my school the professors pretend to teach and the students pretend to learn.

AstroBen 2y ago
> I'm essentially paying for someone to grade my tests and assignments ever considered something like WGU if that's the case? Cheap, can be finished as fast as you want, and would likely get you past HR screening at the rate of a mid-tier uni
eirikbakke 2y ago
The learning materials are all online, but realistically, very few students are going to work full-time 9 months per year for 4 years doing assignments by themselves, without weekly deadlines and friends to cheer them on. If you're going to put in all that time, you might as well get the degree. And as the article points out, the time itself is what dominates the total cost--not tuition.