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Long story short, given that a academic loans are just as undismissable as a criminal judgement, school is a scam. And since having a degree guaranteees absolu

Long story short, given that a academic loans are just as undismissable as a criminal judgement, school is a scam. And since having a degree guaranteees absolutely nothing, doubly so.

lanfeust6 2y ago
There are no guarantees in anything. It's a moot point. As the article makes clear, you can still expect to earn more on average with a degree.
- mystraline 2y ago
  That is true, especily after https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co. That forbid IQ testing in the workplace. The next best, and completely legal requirement was a 'college degree'. What college? We don't care. What degree? Again, we dont care. Its a bar that less black people pass than white people. So completely legal discrimination, but on its face is completely equal.
catamaranaran 2y ago
[dead]
freddie_mercury 2y ago
"College Is Still Worth It Even with Higher Out-of-Pocket Costs" You could at least try to engage with what the article actually says.
- mystraline 2y ago
  I read the article. My comment is a direct refutation of the premise of the article. I think much 'higher education' is an inflated scam partially for being able to discriminate against black people, and they not as able to afford high education costs. I still think apprentice work, but under multiple people with mastery, is the most effective. But only the trades see that as true.
paulcole 2y ago
For a large number of adults: They’ll never have lower expenses and a greater tolerance for not having money than at ages 18-22. They’ll never be in closer contact with such large numbers of people their age with the same level of freedom. I get not spending insane money to go to college but 4 years at an in-state school with reasonable tuition can be a very fun time that you really only get the chance to do once. I wouldn’t go into debt $100k to do it, but $30k-50k doesn’t seem like an outrageous number for how much fun it can be.
- fallingknife 2y ago
  4 years of fun for $50k plus living expenses. You can have fun for 4 years for just the living expenses and save the 50k. The only reason college makes more sense is because your parents are covering the living expenses. Something they probably won't be willing to do if the premise is just having fun.
- xp84 2y ago
  As someone who did just that (and to be fair, I was the beneficiary of an inheritance that paid my $40k off immediately after graduation) I can agree with you, but also it seems silly to have to pay all the tuition and do all the stupid graduation requirements when the main benefits are networking with cool fellow young people, and lack of responsibility. I learned so much more last year from YouTube videos than I did in 4 years of college 20 years ago. I guess what I'm saying is, if they had a 'college' which only had dorms, cafes, interest clubs, and various paths of casual, part-time study which gave no grades and automatically conferred a 'participation certificate' after 4 years, and cost half as much, I'd tell my kids to go there.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Depends on what you go for. The arts degrees you are probaply right but the engineering degrees need serious study.
  - paulcole 2y ago
    > if they had a 'college' which only had dorms, cafes, interest clubs, and various paths of casual, part-time study which gave no grades and automatically conferred a 'participation certificate' after 4 years I got an English degree from University of Florida and that is basically what you are describing lol.
Alupis 2y ago
There is truth to what you say - but it's not absolute. So very many students I knew when at University were surviving entirely off loans/debt, instead of having a job. That's one of the easiest ways for people to rack up 5-6 figures of "student" debt... even though a non-trivial amount was spent on Chipotle and Blaze Pizza... along with expensive apartments or dorms (all expenses the individual would incur regardless if they were a student or not). Many people believe University (and therefore a degree) is an automatic door to a high paying job - yet fail to realize what your field of study is matters a lot. We almost shouldn't even offer student loans for anything outside of STEM, but even within STEM your job prospects are largely up to the individual. University largely doesn't teach you how to do a job... it teaches you how to think. You spend a lot of time in your field of study thinking deeply about issues, ideas, past works, etc. None of which prepares you for your first day in the office. University (and the college experience in general) is meaningful and powerful. I recommend it - but not with debt. Get a full-time job, and work your way through your degree program. It will take much longer to get your degree, but you will be a much more complete adult at the end, filled with equal parts life-experience and domain knowledge.
- wisty 2y ago
  > it teaches you how to think Is there evidence for this? I'm pretty sure people already know how to think. And IIRC tests of critical thinking (not subject specific) to college seniors and freshmen there's not convincing evidence that college really does that much. https://opportunityamericaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/EXCLUSIVE-TEST-DATA-MANY-COLLEGES-FAIL-TO-IMPROVE-CRITICAL-THINKING-SKILLS.pdf https://opportunityamericaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017... - also 4 years of anything tends to make an 18-22 year old a bit older and wiser. A meta argument - colleges are at least halfway competent at assessing critical thinking, and if they were good at improving critical thinking then you'd expect to hear from the unis that can prove they did a good job, and you'd get more than just a slogan. Playing League of Legends also has a bit of face validity to any claim that it improves teamwork, problem solving, decision making under pressure, etc.
  - Alupis 2y ago
    When I say "teach you to think", I don't just mean critical thinking. I mean the entire "mind" experience. Being forced to take subjects you have no interest in, and to do well you must think about them deeply. This expands your mind, and teaches you how to approach things you find boring, have little interest in, and/or don't want to do. Someone is there to hold you accountable for your learning, knowledge and work - all things you must learn to rationalize and do on your own. Many like to say "when am I ever going to use X?", failing to understand not all of the value is in that particular subject - instead it's the complete experience. On reflection, I found some of my most mundane classes to be the most impactful on my life, such as Film Appreciation or Theory of Criminality. These challenged my beliefs and assumptions, expanded my thoughts, and forced me to communicate (vocally and in writing) why I held them. Instead of just "knowing" something, I was challenged to think about and understand why. You will be a better human being, after surviving the experience. You will be more capable of adaptation, reasoning, critical thinking, personal discipline and more. None of this are things you can't learn on your own, or experience somewhere else. But University is a really great way.
ks2048 2y ago
I think only about half of students take out loans, so that's only part of the consideration.
- mystraline 2y ago
  I make 160k/yr, and blew 30k on school that amounted to absolutely nothing. I taught myself systems - there aren't even any degrees that discuss systems architecture. Its not even a thing. I was sold a lemon. At least vehicles have a lemon law. Education has nothing such, and worse yet, has protections against things like even bankruptcy. Edit: For those of you who -1ed this, I would love any sort of citable proof that university has a demonstrable anything positive. As far as I've seen, I've had to teach myself all the monetizable skills. All I have from what Uni classes I took is a big bill and absolutely no positive things.
  - lanfeust6 2y ago
    Your degree had an impact on your hireability and marketability. It signals passing a threshold of work and knowledge, your self-edification doesn't. You can of course build something, but so do college grads, whom you compete against. You also admitted that your wage is such that paying off the tuition was trivial. That makes it seem like a good deal, not a bad one. Even if you're strictly criticizing knowledge-transfer, most people would disagree and find some value in the format.

Long story short, given that a academic loans are just as undismissable as a criminal judgement, school is a scam. And since having a degree guaranteees absolutely nothing, doubly so.

lanfeust6 2y ago

There are no guarantees in anything. It's a moot point. As the article makes clear, you can still expect to earn more on average with a degree.

mystraline 2y ago
That is true, especily after https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co. That forbid IQ testing in the workplace. The next best, and completely legal requirement was a 'college degree'. What college? We don't care. What degree? Again, we dont care. Its a bar that less black people pass than white people. So completely legal discrimination, but on its face is completely equal.

catamaranaran 2y ago

[dead]

freddie_mercury 2y ago

"College Is Still Worth It Even with Higher Out-of-Pocket Costs" You could at least try to engage with what the article actually says.

mystraline 2y ago
I read the article. My comment is a direct refutation of the premise of the article. I think much 'higher education' is an inflated scam partially for being able to discriminate against black people, and they not as able to afford high education costs. I still think apprentice work, but under multiple people with mastery, is the most effective. But only the trades see that as true.

paulcole 2y ago

For a large number of adults: They’ll never have lower expenses and a greater tolerance for not having money than at ages 18-22. They’ll never be in closer contact with such large numbers of people their age with the same level of freedom. I get not spending insane money to go to college but 4 years at an in-state school with reasonable tuition can be a very fun time that you really only get the chance to do once. I wouldn’t go into debt $100k to do it, but $30k-50k doesn’t seem like an outrageous number for how much fun it can be.

fallingknife 2y ago
4 years of fun for $50k plus living expenses. You can have fun for 4 years for just the living expenses and save the 50k. The only reason college makes more sense is because your parents are covering the living expenses. Something they probably won't be willing to do if the premise is just having fun.
xp84 2y ago
As someone who did just that (and to be fair, I was the beneficiary of an inheritance that paid my $40k off immediately after graduation) I can agree with you, but also it seems silly to have to pay all the tuition and do all the stupid graduation requirements when the main benefits are networking with cool fellow young people, and lack of responsibility. I learned so much more last year from YouTube videos than I did in 4 years of college 20 years ago. I guess what I'm saying is, if they had a 'college' which only had dorms, cafes, interest clubs, and various paths of casual, part-time study which gave no grades and automatically conferred a 'participation certificate' after 4 years, and cost half as much, I'd tell my kids to go there.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Depends on what you go for. The arts degrees you are probaply right but the engineering degrees need serious study.
- paulcole 2y ago
  > if they had a 'college' which only had dorms, cafes, interest clubs, and various paths of casual, part-time study which gave no grades and automatically conferred a 'participation certificate' after 4 years I got an English degree from University of Florida and that is basically what you are describing lol.

Alupis 2y ago

There is truth to what you say - but it's not absolute. So very many students I knew when at University were surviving entirely off loans/debt, instead of having a job. That's one of the easiest ways for people to rack up 5-6 figures of "student" debt... even though a non-trivial amount was spent on Chipotle and Blaze Pizza... along with expensive apartments or dorms (all expenses the individual would incur regardless if they were a student or not). Many people believe University (and therefore a degree) is an automatic door to a high paying job - yet fail to realize what your field of study is matters a lot. We almost shouldn't even offer student loans for anything outside of STEM, but even within STEM your job prospects are largely up to the individual. University largely doesn't teach you how to do a job... it teaches you how to think. You spend a lot of time in your field of study thinking deeply about issues, ideas, past works, etc. None of which prepares you for your first day in the office. University (and the college experience in general) is meaningful and powerful. I recommend it - but not with debt. Get a full-time job, and work your way through your degree program. It will take much longer to get your degree, but you will be a much more complete adult at the end, filled with equal parts life-experience and domain knowledge.

wisty 2y ago
> it teaches you how to think Is there evidence for this? I'm pretty sure people already know how to think. And IIRC tests of critical thinking (not subject specific) to college seniors and freshmen there's not convincing evidence that college really does that much. https://opportunityamericaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/EXCLUSIVE-TEST-DATA-MANY-COLLEGES-FAIL-TO-IMPROVE-CRITICAL-THINKING-SKILLS.pdf https://opportunityamericaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2017... - also 4 years of anything tends to make an 18-22 year old a bit older and wiser. A meta argument - colleges are at least halfway competent at assessing critical thinking, and if they were good at improving critical thinking then you'd expect to hear from the unis that can prove they did a good job, and you'd get more than just a slogan. Playing League of Legends also has a bit of face validity to any claim that it improves teamwork, problem solving, decision making under pressure, etc.
- Alupis 2y ago
  When I say "teach you to think", I don't just mean critical thinking. I mean the entire "mind" experience. Being forced to take subjects you have no interest in, and to do well you must think about them deeply. This expands your mind, and teaches you how to approach things you find boring, have little interest in, and/or don't want to do. Someone is there to hold you accountable for your learning, knowledge and work - all things you must learn to rationalize and do on your own. Many like to say "when am I ever going to use X?", failing to understand not all of the value is in that particular subject - instead it's the complete experience. On reflection, I found some of my most mundane classes to be the most impactful on my life, such as Film Appreciation or Theory of Criminality. These challenged my beliefs and assumptions, expanded my thoughts, and forced me to communicate (vocally and in writing) why I held them. Instead of just "knowing" something, I was challenged to think about and understand why. You will be a better human being, after surviving the experience. You will be more capable of adaptation, reasoning, critical thinking, personal discipline and more. None of this are things you can't learn on your own, or experience somewhere else. But University is a really great way.

ks2048 2y ago

I think only about half of students take out loans, so that's only part of the consideration.

mystraline 2y ago
I make 160k/yr, and blew 30k on school that amounted to absolutely nothing. I taught myself systems - there aren't even any degrees that discuss systems architecture. Its not even a thing. I was sold a lemon. At least vehicles have a lemon law. Education has nothing such, and worse yet, has protections against things like even bankruptcy. Edit: For those of you who -1ed this, I would love any sort of citable proof that university has a demonstrable anything positive. As far as I've seen, I've had to teach myself all the monetizable skills. All I have from what Uni classes I took is a big bill and absolutely no positive things.
- lanfeust6 2y ago
  Your degree had an impact on your hireability and marketability. It signals passing a threshold of work and knowledge, your self-edification doesn't. You can of course build something, but so do college grads, whom you compete against. You also admitted that your wage is such that paying off the tuition was trivial. That makes it seem like a good deal, not a bad one. Even if you're strictly criticizing knowledge-transfer, most people would disagree and find some value in the format.