4 ms·

It's pretty surprising that they're willing to charge a flat rate rather than by token, but great news for users. It's inevitable that you get annoyed at AI whe

It's pretty surprising that they're willing to charge a flat rate rather than by token, but great news for users. It's inevitable that you get annoyed at AI when it consumes tokens and generates a bad answer, or starts reading files that aren't fully relevant. The flat rate takes away that bad taste. The business modelling behind it must be quite intense, I hope this doesn't blow up in JetBrains' face if Junie's usage patterns change over time. JetBrains are in a great position to do this though, perhaps the best position. Whereas a tool like Claude Code or Aider can give the LLM grep and little else [1], Junie can give the LLM a kind of textual API to the IDE's own static analysis database. If Claude/GPT want to understand what a function is doing and how it's used, it could issue a tool call that brings up nicely rendered API docs and nothing else, it could issue a tool call to navigate into it and read just the function body and so on. And they can use the IDE to check whether the code complies with the language rules more or less instantly without needing to do a full compile to pick up on hallucinated APIs or syntax errors. So much potential with this kind of integration, all that stuff is barely the start. [1] Aider attempts to build a "repo map" using a PageRank over symbols extracted by tree-sitter, but it never worked well for me.

Ocha 2y ago
It is by token - you get quota of tokens that once used up, disables your cloud integration
- lolinder 2y ago
  Where are you reading this? I see there's a concept of "credits" but don't see any explanation of what a credit is.
  - jwortmann719 2y ago
    it is token based AFAIK, but we will provide some more information around credits/quota/tokens for the different price tiers in the coming days/weeks
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - lolinder 2y ago
      Token based is a pretty strong downside for me that would be enough to get me to use other tools like Cursor (even though I love JetBrains IDEs). I get actively stressed watching an automated system burn through my money on its own recognizance. If I'm going to have quotas or usage-based pricing I want the metrics used to be things that I have direct control over, not things that the service provider controls.
      - int_19h 2y ago
        TANSTAAFL. With flat pricing, companies have incentives to downgrade you to cheaper models - which currently strongly correlates with worse quality of output - or, more likely, to trim context significantly and hope you won't notice. But yes, there should absolutely be ways to track usage, ideally before the prompt is even submitted for processing (maybe for >N tokens per query, where N can be specified in settings but has a reasonable default).
mrighele 2y ago
The tokens are not unlimited though, Pro and Ultimate plan seems to differ essentially on the amount of tokens you get. [1] Anyway I think that for the average developer (i.e. not enterprise customers) this is easier to reason about, so I am fine with that. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/ai-ides/buy/?section=personal&billing=monthly https://www.jetbrains.com/ai-ides/buy/?section=personal&bill...
- jsheard 2y ago
  It's odd that they don't seem to let you pay for overages, it looks like you are just shit out of luck past a certain point even on the most expensive plan.
  - mrighele 2y ago
    Also, "no credit system" for resharper and android studio. I am wondering if for the latter Google is footing the bill...
  - kowabungalow 2y ago
    I can't imagine it is healthy to consume anywhere near the limit.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Were you able to figure out what constitutes a "credit"? I initially assumed they were following Cursor's (early) model of 1 prompt = 1 credit, with the tokens used to fulfill the prompt not costing anything. If that's how they're doing it that still leaves a bad taste when you waste a credit on something that doesn't work, but it does remove the need to care about how the tool gets there.
netcan 2y ago
>The business modelling behind it must be quite intense, I hope this doesn't blow up in JetBrains' face Historically... this tends to work out. Reminds me of Gmail initially allowing massive inbox. YouTube doing free hosting. All the various untethered LAMP hosting... If necessary they'll add an anti-abuse policy or whatnot to mitigate the heavy users. The sophisticated modeling is basically "just get going" with a guesstimate and adjust if needed. I doubt that pricing structure will sink any ships. It's going to be about utility.
- mjrpes 2y ago
  > Historically... this tends to work out. Reminds me of Gmail initially allowing massive inbox. YouTube doing free hosting. All the various untethered LAMP hosting... One difference I see: storage capacity and compute performance aren't increasing like they had in the past, so companies can't rely on these costs to dramatically drop in the future to offset bleeding cash initially to gain market share.
  - drakenot 2y ago
    The cost of inference[0] for the same quality has been dropping by nearly 10x year over year. I’m not sure when that trend will slow down, but there’s still been a lot of low-hanging fruit around algorithmic efficiency. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1gpr2p4/llms_cost_is_decreasing_by_10x_each_year_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1gpr2p4/llms_co...
  - antisthenes 2y ago
    > One difference I see: storage capacity and compute performance aren't increasing like they had in the past Companies stopped increasing free storage tiers ~10 years ago or even more, while the cost of storage has dropped significantly in that time period. Both hard drives and SSDs.
  - netcan 2y ago
    Sure. I agree that usage/demand is likely to outgrow compute performance. But.. a lot of the other dynamics that make this game winnable still stand. Maybe they will need to go with a meter eventually or some other pricing structure... but it will work out.

Ocha 2y ago

It is by token - you get quota of tokens that once used up, disables your cloud integration

lolinder 2y ago
Where are you reading this? I see there's a concept of "credits" but don't see any explanation of what a credit is.
- jwortmann719 2y ago
  it is token based AFAIK, but we will provide some more information around credits/quota/tokens for the different price tiers in the coming days/weeks
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Token based is a pretty strong downside for me that would be enough to get me to use other tools like Cursor (even though I love JetBrains IDEs). I get actively stressed watching an automated system burn through my money on its own recognizance. If I'm going to have quotas or usage-based pricing I want the metrics used to be things that I have direct control over, not things that the service provider controls.
    - int_19h 2y ago
      TANSTAAFL. With flat pricing, companies have incentives to downgrade you to cheaper models - which currently strongly correlates with worse quality of output - or, more likely, to trim context significantly and hope you won't notice. But yes, there should absolutely be ways to track usage, ideally before the prompt is even submitted for processing (maybe for >N tokens per query, where N can be specified in settings but has a reasonable default).

mrighele 2y ago

The tokens are not unlimited though, Pro and Ultimate plan seems to differ essentially on the amount of tokens you get. [1] Anyway I think that for the average developer (i.e. not enterprise customers) this is easier to reason about, so I am fine with that. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/ai-ides/buy/?section=personal&billing=monthly https://www.jetbrains.com/ai-ides/buy/?section=personal&bill...

jsheard 2y ago
It's odd that they don't seem to let you pay for overages, it looks like you are just shit out of luck past a certain point even on the most expensive plan.
- mrighele 2y ago
  Also, "no credit system" for resharper and android studio. I am wondering if for the latter Google is footing the bill...
- kowabungalow 2y ago
  I can't imagine it is healthy to consume anywhere near the limit.
lolinder 2y ago
Were you able to figure out what constitutes a "credit"? I initially assumed they were following Cursor's (early) model of 1 prompt = 1 credit, with the tokens used to fulfill the prompt not costing anything. If that's how they're doing it that still leaves a bad taste when you waste a credit on something that doesn't work, but it does remove the need to care about how the tool gets there.

netcan 2y ago

>The business modelling behind it must be quite intense, I hope this doesn't blow up in JetBrains' face Historically... this tends to work out. Reminds me of Gmail initially allowing massive inbox. YouTube doing free hosting. All the various untethered LAMP hosting... If necessary they'll add an anti-abuse policy or whatnot to mitigate the heavy users. The sophisticated modeling is basically "just get going" with a guesstimate and adjust if needed. I doubt that pricing structure will sink any ships. It's going to be about utility.

mjrpes 2y ago
> Historically... this tends to work out. Reminds me of Gmail initially allowing massive inbox. YouTube doing free hosting. All the various untethered LAMP hosting... One difference I see: storage capacity and compute performance aren't increasing like they had in the past, so companies can't rely on these costs to dramatically drop in the future to offset bleeding cash initially to gain market share.
- drakenot 2y ago
  The cost of inference[0] for the same quality has been dropping by nearly 10x year over year. I’m not sure when that trend will slow down, but there’s still been a lot of low-hanging fruit around algorithmic efficiency. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1gpr2p4/llms_cost_is_decreasing_by_10x_each_year_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/LocalLLaMA/comments/1gpr2p4/llms_co...
- antisthenes 2y ago
  > One difference I see: storage capacity and compute performance aren't increasing like they had in the past Companies stopped increasing free storage tiers ~10 years ago or even more, while the cost of storage has dropped significantly in that time period. Both hard drives and SSDs.
- netcan 2y ago
  Sure. I agree that usage/demand is likely to outgrow compute performance. But.. a lot of the other dynamics that make this game winnable still stand. Maybe they will need to go with a meter eventually or some other pricing structure... but it will work out.