4 ms·

This article is totally barking up the wrong tree. PHP's growth had little to do with its appeal to programmers, and lots to do with its appeal to shared hosti

by brlewis 18y ago

This article is totally barking up the wrong tree. PHP's growth had little to do with its appeal to programmers, and lots to do with its appeal to shared hosting providers. Safe mode is what I'm talking about.

neilk 18y ago
I wish I could upmod you more points. That's 50% of the reason right there. mod_perl was a far superior solution, and you didn't have to restart Apache every time. However, this was not the default configuration, which is apparently enough to deter decently smart people.
icode 18y ago
I have been a coder all my life and PHP very much appeals to me. I used Assembler, Basic, Pascal, C++ and a couple of other languages and now that I code in PHP, its the best part of my life. It enabled me to write multiple hugely successful websites that make me enough money for me, so I can do whatever I want. For the rest of my life. I really love Linux, Apache and MySql. So doing things in LAMP is just great for me. Hosting is a big part of my business, so yeah - its cool that PHP is all around. You can get new servers for no money in seconds. Its a wonderful world. Im so happy, there is LAMP. I never used Perl, Ruby, Lisp or Arc. So I cannot say anything about these. I can only say I dont miss a thing with LAMP. I have a LOT of complaints about HTML and Javascript. I hated using Microsoft stuff. LAMP was the breaktrhough.
- Fuca 18y ago
  Any tips or a blog where you share your ideas for the ones who want to follow your steps?
  - icode 18y ago
    Im not that good with words. That outburst of delight I wrote above is probably one of the better posts I wrote. Who knows, maybe Im getting better at this. Then I might start a blog one day.
    - ryanwaggoner 18y ago
      You're killing us here :)
    - rokhayakebe 18y ago
      Suspense. Well done Icode.
- kirubakaran 18y ago
  > It enabled me to write multiple hugely successful websites that make me enough money for me, so I can do whatever I want. For the rest of my life. Very interesting. Please elaborate!
  - icode 18y ago
    I prefer to stay anonymous. But its probably a very typical Nerd 2.0 story like the ones you hear at this website often. Only that I always stayed in my room and didnt connect to any other web2.0 people. No Blog, no press releases, no ycombinator, no investors. I just wrote some stuff that people want and got some good return from it.
    - hollerith 18y ago
      OK, then we don't know if you're really a loser trying to appear successful so we'll listen to you on PHP.
      - palish 18y ago
        One of the aspects I love about HN is that nobody here has to prove anything to anyone else. Maybe I'm terribly naive, but it feels like lying happens far less here than in other corners of the tubes. So I believe icode, personally. My feelings are "good for him" and "I hope he enjoys his steak and strippers".
        woodsier 18y ago
        True. Usually because it's very easy to identify and call out anyone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
        palish 18y ago
        Very true. And you bring up a good point. If nobody was accountable for posting nonsense, then the discussion would probably contain a lot more of it. I'm just making a personal choice to give icode the benefit of the doubt. If he's uneasy about broadcasting his difficult struggle to tens of thousands of people, then that's entirely his personal choice, and I'm happy he was willing to share few details about his experience.
- tlrobinson 18y ago
  Wait, was this a joke? I honestly can't tell.
  - vlad 18y ago
    I don't think it is. The bleeding edge of Web 1.0 or even Web 2.0 development required a LAMP stack. The author says that compared to programming desktop applications (all of the languages he mentioned), the web based stack of MySQL, PHP, and Linux better allowed him to create apps that users wanted. Developers who started with PHP and moved up to Ruby and Python may not realize that older developers who started with Assembler, Basic, and C++ find any kind of web development a huge improvement for them. And, a productive single person would by definition try to extend and improve their app instead of learning new languages unnecessarily every 6 months.
    - tlrobinson 18y ago
      I didn't mean to imply PHP couldn't be used successfully (it certainly can), rather the post sounded blissfully ignorant to the point of sarcasm. Perhaps "ignorant" isn't the right word, though ignorant of the "better" languages.
      - pj 18y ago
        I think I know what you mean. When I read it, I got the same impression. It's not ignorance, because what the post is saying is true. LAMP does do all those things and it is very smart in many ways. But the things listed are equivalently true of other languages and programming platforms as well. I don't understand though, why PHP is being compared to JS, when they solve different problems.
    - icode 18y ago
      Not only compared to desktop applications was LAMP a huge advantage, but also compared to Microsofts Web-Technologie (IIS,MS-Server,ASP and later .NET). I was able to create apps the user wanted in the years I used MS technologie, but I did not like it very much. When I discovered LAMP it was like YEAH! and I stayed at home and coded away for weeks and some great stuff came out of this. As for the language (you mention moving "up" to Ruby or Python), I dont really care if I do str_replace('stuff','zen','stuff and the art not to care'); or 'stuff and the art not to care'.kickasstransform('stuff','zen'); or whatever the latest hottness is :-) When it comes to things that matter, I dont miss anything in PHP. For example, Javascript is a cooler language, because it has first class functions and all that crazy shit. Ok, I dont mind that. But on the other hand, I HATE with a passion that "a=7" will by default put "a" into the global scope in Javascript. That outweights all the advanced tech in Javascript. But the language itself is not the most important factor. Most important is all the stuff that surrounds it. When I use PHP, I get new servers within a click with any company i choose. I get the LAMP stack installed by putting an Ubuntu CD into any machine, install it and do "apt-get install php5". On IRC, there are tons of people on freenode#php (there aint many for Ruby for example). And there is a very nice manual at php.net and so on. And VERY important to me is the whole feeling about how L,A,M and P are implemented. How I can use php on the command line, how I can start mysql from the command line and give it commandlineparameters, how one table is represented in MySql (one file for the structure, one file for the data and one for the indexes), how a database is represented in MySql (a directory)... There are millions of things I like. And they make me feel that the people who wrote L,A,M and P at least partly think like me. Thats cool and makes me productive.
sh1mmer 18y ago
I agree somewhat but there are other factors. You can't tell me that every web host worth their salt didn't (or doesn't) offer up a cgi-bin directory. I would characterize it as this: PHP is a Perl-like language that is entirely web oriented. Because Rasmus built PHP to make web sites it was oriented towards the web from day 1. Since it's similar to Perl (dynamic typing, just-in-time, etc) it's easy to learn and flexible. However, unlike Perl there was no existing community with a non web focus. This made it very easy for the PHP community to rally around web projects and achieve all the things that made it good for the web and hence extremely adoptable.
spoondan 18y ago
I think your point can be summarized most plainly by saying PHP is cheap to host. I don't doubt that is a large part of its continuing popularity. But it is begging the question: Hosting providers didn't force PHP on the world, they met a demand. Where did that demand come from? I don't think its technical merits (such as they are), community, documentation, or appeal to hosting providers is to blame. I think the answer is rather simpler: PHP was the only language that tied itself to the "build a website" niche in both its implementation and its marketing. Sun's contemporary efforts with Java were scattered and, even in the web domain, more focused on applets. PHP had "build a website" written all over it. In short, I think it comes down to the old adage: location, location, location. PHP was perfectly positioned. The web boomed, and PHP rode its coattails. Anything with even the slimmest virtues could have succeeded with such good placement. In fact, it did.

by brlewis 18y ago

neilk 18y ago

I wish I could upmod you more points. That's 50% of the reason right there. mod_perl was a far superior solution, and you didn't have to restart Apache every time. However, this was not the default configuration, which is apparently enough to deter decently smart people.

icode 18y ago

I have been a coder all my life and PHP very much appeals to me. I used Assembler, Basic, Pascal, C++ and a couple of other languages and now that I code in PHP, its the best part of my life. It enabled me to write multiple hugely successful websites that make me enough money for me, so I can do whatever I want. For the rest of my life. I really love Linux, Apache and MySql. So doing things in LAMP is just great for me. Hosting is a big part of my business, so yeah - its cool that PHP is all around. You can get new servers for no money in seconds. Its a wonderful world. Im so happy, there is LAMP. I never used Perl, Ruby, Lisp or Arc. So I cannot say anything about these. I can only say I dont miss a thing with LAMP. I have a LOT of complaints about HTML and Javascript. I hated using Microsoft stuff. LAMP was the breaktrhough.

Fuca 18y ago
Any tips or a blog where you share your ideas for the ones who want to follow your steps?
- icode 18y ago
  Im not that good with words. That outburst of delight I wrote above is probably one of the better posts I wrote. Who knows, maybe Im getting better at this. Then I might start a blog one day.
  - ryanwaggoner 18y ago
    You're killing us here :)
  - rokhayakebe 18y ago
    Suspense. Well done Icode.
kirubakaran 18y ago
> It enabled me to write multiple hugely successful websites that make me enough money for me, so I can do whatever I want. For the rest of my life. Very interesting. Please elaborate!
- icode 18y ago
  I prefer to stay anonymous. But its probably a very typical Nerd 2.0 story like the ones you hear at this website often. Only that I always stayed in my room and didnt connect to any other web2.0 people. No Blog, no press releases, no ycombinator, no investors. I just wrote some stuff that people want and got some good return from it.
  - hollerith 18y ago
    OK, then we don't know if you're really a loser trying to appear successful so we'll listen to you on PHP.
    - palish 18y ago
      One of the aspects I love about HN is that nobody here has to prove anything to anyone else. Maybe I'm terribly naive, but it feels like lying happens far less here than in other corners of the tubes. So I believe icode, personally. My feelings are "good for him" and "I hope he enjoys his steak and strippers".
      - woodsier 18y ago
        True. Usually because it's very easy to identify and call out anyone who doesn't know what they're talking about.
        palish 18y ago
        Very true. And you bring up a good point. If nobody was accountable for posting nonsense, then the discussion would probably contain a lot more of it. I'm just making a personal choice to give icode the benefit of the doubt. If he's uneasy about broadcasting his difficult struggle to tens of thousands of people, then that's entirely his personal choice, and I'm happy he was willing to share few details about his experience.
tlrobinson 18y ago
Wait, was this a joke? I honestly can't tell.
- vlad 18y ago
  I don't think it is. The bleeding edge of Web 1.0 or even Web 2.0 development required a LAMP stack. The author says that compared to programming desktop applications (all of the languages he mentioned), the web based stack of MySQL, PHP, and Linux better allowed him to create apps that users wanted. Developers who started with PHP and moved up to Ruby and Python may not realize that older developers who started with Assembler, Basic, and C++ find any kind of web development a huge improvement for them. And, a productive single person would by definition try to extend and improve their app instead of learning new languages unnecessarily every 6 months.
  - tlrobinson 18y ago
    I didn't mean to imply PHP couldn't be used successfully (it certainly can), rather the post sounded blissfully ignorant to the point of sarcasm. Perhaps "ignorant" isn't the right word, though ignorant of the "better" languages.
    - pj 18y ago
      I think I know what you mean. When I read it, I got the same impression. It's not ignorance, because what the post is saying is true. LAMP does do all those things and it is very smart in many ways. But the things listed are equivalently true of other languages and programming platforms as well. I don't understand though, why PHP is being compared to JS, when they solve different problems.
  - icode 18y ago
    Not only compared to desktop applications was LAMP a huge advantage, but also compared to Microsofts Web-Technologie (IIS,MS-Server,ASP and later .NET). I was able to create apps the user wanted in the years I used MS technologie, but I did not like it very much. When I discovered LAMP it was like YEAH! and I stayed at home and coded away for weeks and some great stuff came out of this. As for the language (you mention moving "up" to Ruby or Python), I dont really care if I do str_replace('stuff','zen','stuff and the art not to care'); or 'stuff and the art not to care'.kickasstransform('stuff','zen'); or whatever the latest hottness is :-) When it comes to things that matter, I dont miss anything in PHP. For example, Javascript is a cooler language, because it has first class functions and all that crazy shit. Ok, I dont mind that. But on the other hand, I HATE with a passion that "a=7" will by default put "a" into the global scope in Javascript. That outweights all the advanced tech in Javascript. But the language itself is not the most important factor. Most important is all the stuff that surrounds it. When I use PHP, I get new servers within a click with any company i choose. I get the LAMP stack installed by putting an Ubuntu CD into any machine, install it and do "apt-get install php5". On IRC, there are tons of people on freenode#php (there aint many for Ruby for example). And there is a very nice manual at php.net and so on. And VERY important to me is the whole feeling about how L,A,M and P are implemented. How I can use php on the command line, how I can start mysql from the command line and give it commandlineparameters, how one table is represented in MySql (one file for the structure, one file for the data and one for the indexes), how a database is represented in MySql (a directory)... There are millions of things I like. And they make me feel that the people who wrote L,A,M and P at least partly think like me. Thats cool and makes me productive.

sh1mmer 18y ago

I agree somewhat but there are other factors. You can't tell me that every web host worth their salt didn't (or doesn't) offer up a cgi-bin directory. I would characterize it as this: PHP is a Perl-like language that is entirely web oriented. Because Rasmus built PHP to make web sites it was oriented towards the web from day 1. Since it's similar to Perl (dynamic typing, just-in-time, etc) it's easy to learn and flexible. However, unlike Perl there was no existing community with a non web focus. This made it very easy for the PHP community to rally around web projects and achieve all the things that made it good for the web and hence extremely adoptable.

spoondan 18y ago

I think your point can be summarized most plainly by saying PHP is cheap to host. I don't doubt that is a large part of its continuing popularity. But it is begging the question: Hosting providers didn't force PHP on the world, they met a demand. Where did that demand come from? I don't think its technical merits (such as they are), community, documentation, or appeal to hosting providers is to blame. I think the answer is rather simpler: PHP was the only language that tied itself to the "build a website" niche in both its implementation and its marketing. Sun's contemporary efforts with Java were scattered and, even in the web domain, more focused on applets. PHP had "build a website" written all over it. In short, I think it comes down to the old adage: location, location, location. PHP was perfectly positioned. The web boomed, and PHP rode its coattails. Anything with even the slimmest virtues could have succeeded with such good placement. In fact, it did.