5 ms·

> making logical arguments in this environment feels almost pointless. Unfortunately this is the culmination of social media as a controversy machine, that pro

by pjc50 2y ago

> making logical arguments in this environment feels almost pointless. Unfortunately this is the culmination of social media as a controversy machine, that promotes the worst arguments. > ideological purity tests like required DEI statements Example? There's a controversy industry that cherry picks the worst examples of student-politics excess in these regards and then carefully conflates it with university policy. As well as the sad truth that as soon as you take away "DEI" requirements the segregationists come back and purge the library, delete all the black Medal of Honor recipients from the website, etc.

like_any_other 2y ago
> Example? Diversity Statements Required for One-Fifth of Academic Jobs - https://www.schoolinfosystem.org/2021/11/11/study-diversity-statements-required-for-one-fifth-of-academic-jobs/ https://www.schoolinfosystem.org/2021/11/11/study-diversity-... More examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43692945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43692945
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  20% isn't so bad; the way it's usually portrayed in the media it sounds more like 90% of posts require such statements
  - ImJamal 2y ago
    If a college allocated a minimum of 20% of their jobs to whites, would you still say it wasn't too bad?
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      If we'd enslaved whites and then turned them second class citizens with minimal rights and very few economic opportunities until fairly recently, putting them in conditions that make it very difficult for them to achieve equal opportunity, then yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
      - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
        You don't even have to go that far. I went to school in south Atlanta, where both student body and teaching staff tended to be overwhelmingly Black. The school had a policy of hiring a certain percentage of non-Black teachers, including white teachers, and it had programs designed specifically to attract students from white and Hispanic communities. The goal was not to give non-Black students and teachers a leg up; it was to promote diversity and ensure students graduated ready to meet all kinds of different people in the workplace. These policies were popular and uncontroversial, at least while I was there — though I dare say they would be deemed illegal now.
    - kenjackson 2y ago
      These are statements, not quotas. Basically these are statements where you note that you support teaching all kids, will make efforts to be inclusive and ensure your class has an inclusive environment, etc… There is no requirement on the race of the applicants.
      - like_any_other 2y ago
        > these are statements where you note that you support teaching all kids, will make efforts to be inclusive and ensure your class has an inclusive environment If you look at one example of the actual assessment criteria [1], merely teaching without discrimination or exclusion earns the lowest possible score. [1] Only mentions activities that are already the expectation of faculty as evidence of commitment and involvement (for example, "I always invite and welcome students from all backgrounds to participate in my research lab, and in fact have mentored several women." - https://web.archive.org/web/20200302212643/https://ofew.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/rubric_to_assess_candidate_contributions_to_diversity_equity_and_inclusion.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20200302212643/https://ofew.berk...
        kenjackson 2y ago
        Thanks for the rubric. I found the complete listing. It’s useful to also see the instructions given: https://ap.uci.edu/faculty/guidance/ieactivities/ https://ap.uci.edu/faculty/guidance/ieactivities/ The instructions make it pretty clear what you need to write. This seems reasonable to me as PART of a total application, but not as the gate to get into the review process. But again, this is not the same as a quota.
      - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
        These statements are performative bullshit, and everyone who writes one knows it. > Basically these are statements where you note that you support teaching all kids Do you really feel today's university professors need to write an essay saying they support teaching everyone? > will make efforts to be inclusive and ensure your class has an inclusive environment Again, say someone is teaching calculus, what does this exactly mean? It's absolutely makes sense to me that a university has policies in place to ensure classrooms are inclusive and that discrimination does not occur. But these statements are nonsense.
hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
> Example? I literally linked an article in my comment that had an overview, but here is a more specific one that addresses diversity statements in particular: https://reason.com/2022/09/30/mandated-diversity-statement-drives-jonathan-haidt-to-quit-academic-society/ https://reason.com/2022/09/30/mandated-diversity-statement-d... > As well as the sad truth that as soon as you take away "DEI" requirements the segregationists come back and purge the library, delete all the black Medal of Honor recipients from the website, etc. This is literally my exact point. There absolutely should be a rational place that denounces both these diversity statement ideological requirements and the egregious memory-holing that the current administration is implementing.
- moomin 2y ago
  So… an incident not involving a university in any way is your example of universities jumping the shark?
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    Fair enough, my bad. Here you go: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/fire-statement-use-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-criteria-faculty-hiring-and https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/fire-statement-use-di... https://www.wbur.org/news/2024/05/07/massachusetts-institute-technology-diversity-statements https://www.wbur.org/news/2024/05/07/massachusetts-institute... https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/us/harvard-diversity-statements.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/us/harvard-diversity-stat... https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/20/us/diversity-statements-university-of-california.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/20/us/diversity-statements-u... https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/diversity-statements-are-getting-cut-from-these-universities/ https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/diversity-statements-are-g...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Manuel_D 2y ago
At UC Berkeley, over 75% of faculty applicants were rejected solely based on reviewing their diversity statements: https://thehill.com/opinion/education/480603-what-is-uc-davis-hiding-about-its-use-of-diversity-statements/ https://thehill.com/opinion/education/480603-what-is-uc-davi... Rather conspicuously, Asians had the highest rate of rejection, followed by whites. Latin applicants had the second highest pass rate, Black applicants had the highest. The diversity statements were not anonymized (as in, the reviewers could see the ethnicity of each applicant when reviewing their diversity statement). Diversity statements were widely suspected of being a smokescreen for racial preferences. Much like the "personality score" Harvard used to curate its desired racial makeup in its student admissions.
- vixen99 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - skywhopper 2y ago
    It’s an overhyped exaggeration at best, but very likely a complete misrepresentation of the policies and how they were used in reality. What you should be outraged by is that lazy hacks can make a living by stirring up fake controversies over intentionally misinterpreting this stuff.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    > Doesn't anyone think is utterly appalling? Of course. The point of this kind of propaganda is to have you reacting so negatively and emotionally that you don't examine the claims calmly and rationally. Emotions > facts. If no-one appalled, then it isn't doing its job.
  - hylaride 2y ago
    For the schools that have them, I consider legacy admissions to be more appalling. Those are overwhelmingly white. The other issue is that many of these schools have not been expanding enrolment numbers to population growth. Less seats per-capita mean more exclusivity over time. Get rid of them both (DEI and legacy admissions) and the government should create a policy that those endowments need to be used to expand the size of the schools.

by pjc50 2y ago

like_any_other 2y ago

> Example? Diversity Statements Required for One-Fifth of Academic Jobs - https://www.schoolinfosystem.org/2021/11/11/study-diversity-statements-required-for-one-fifth-of-academic-jobs/ https://www.schoolinfosystem.org/2021/11/11/study-diversity-... More examples: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43692945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43692945

insane_dreamer 2y ago
20% isn't so bad; the way it's usually portrayed in the media it sounds more like 90% of posts require such statements
- ImJamal 2y ago
  If a college allocated a minimum of 20% of their jobs to whites, would you still say it wasn't too bad?
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    If we'd enslaved whites and then turned them second class citizens with minimal rights and very few economic opportunities until fairly recently, putting them in conditions that make it very difficult for them to achieve equal opportunity, then yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
    - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
      You don't even have to go that far. I went to school in south Atlanta, where both student body and teaching staff tended to be overwhelmingly Black. The school had a policy of hiring a certain percentage of non-Black teachers, including white teachers, and it had programs designed specifically to attract students from white and Hispanic communities. The goal was not to give non-Black students and teachers a leg up; it was to promote diversity and ensure students graduated ready to meet all kinds of different people in the workplace. These policies were popular and uncontroversial, at least while I was there — though I dare say they would be deemed illegal now.
  - kenjackson 2y ago
    These are statements, not quotas. Basically these are statements where you note that you support teaching all kids, will make efforts to be inclusive and ensure your class has an inclusive environment, etc… There is no requirement on the race of the applicants.
    - like_any_other 2y ago
      > these are statements where you note that you support teaching all kids, will make efforts to be inclusive and ensure your class has an inclusive environment If you look at one example of the actual assessment criteria [1], merely teaching without discrimination or exclusion earns the lowest possible score. [1] Only mentions activities that are already the expectation of faculty as evidence of commitment and involvement (for example, "I always invite and welcome students from all backgrounds to participate in my research lab, and in fact have mentored several women." - https://web.archive.org/web/20200302212643/https://ofew.berkeley.edu/sites/default/files/rubric_to_assess_candidate_contributions_to_diversity_equity_and_inclusion.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20200302212643/https://ofew.berk...
      - kenjackson 2y ago
        Thanks for the rubric. I found the complete listing. It’s useful to also see the instructions given: https://ap.uci.edu/faculty/guidance/ieactivities/ https://ap.uci.edu/faculty/guidance/ieactivities/ The instructions make it pretty clear what you need to write. This seems reasonable to me as PART of a total application, but not as the gate to get into the review process. But again, this is not the same as a quota.
    - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
      These statements are performative bullshit, and everyone who writes one knows it. > Basically these are statements where you note that you support teaching all kids Do you really feel today's university professors need to write an essay saying they support teaching everyone? > will make efforts to be inclusive and ensure your class has an inclusive environment Again, say someone is teaching calculus, what does this exactly mean? It's absolutely makes sense to me that a university has policies in place to ensure classrooms are inclusive and that discrimination does not occur. But these statements are nonsense.

hn_throwaway_99 2y ago

> Example? I literally linked an article in my comment that had an overview, but here is a more specific one that addresses diversity statements in particular: https://reason.com/2022/09/30/mandated-diversity-statement-drives-jonathan-haidt-to-quit-academic-society/ https://reason.com/2022/09/30/mandated-diversity-statement-d... > As well as the sad truth that as soon as you take away "DEI" requirements the segregationists come back and purge the library, delete all the black Medal of Honor recipients from the website, etc. This is literally my exact point. There absolutely should be a rational place that denounces both these diversity statement ideological requirements and the egregious memory-holing that the current administration is implementing.

moomin 2y ago
So… an incident not involving a university in any way is your example of universities jumping the shark?
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  Fair enough, my bad. Here you go: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/fire-statement-use-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-criteria-faculty-hiring-and https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/fire-statement-use-di... https://www.wbur.org/news/2024/05/07/massachusetts-institute-technology-diversity-statements https://www.wbur.org/news/2024/05/07/massachusetts-institute... https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/us/harvard-diversity-statements.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/03/us/harvard-diversity-stat... https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/20/us/diversity-statements-university-of-california.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/20/us/diversity-statements-u... https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/diversity-statements-are-getting-cut-from-these-universities/ https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/diversity-statements-are-g...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Manuel_D 2y ago

At UC Berkeley, over 75% of faculty applicants were rejected solely based on reviewing their diversity statements: https://thehill.com/opinion/education/480603-what-is-uc-davis-hiding-about-its-use-of-diversity-statements/ https://thehill.com/opinion/education/480603-what-is-uc-davi... Rather conspicuously, Asians had the highest rate of rejection, followed by whites. Latin applicants had the second highest pass rate, Black applicants had the highest. The diversity statements were not anonymized (as in, the reviewers could see the ethnicity of each applicant when reviewing their diversity statement). Diversity statements were widely suspected of being a smokescreen for racial preferences. Much like the "personality score" Harvard used to curate its desired racial makeup in its student admissions.

vixen99 2y ago
[flagged]
- skywhopper 2y ago
  It’s an overhyped exaggeration at best, but very likely a complete misrepresentation of the policies and how they were used in reality. What you should be outraged by is that lazy hacks can make a living by stirring up fake controversies over intentionally misinterpreting this stuff.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  > Doesn't anyone think is utterly appalling? Of course. The point of this kind of propaganda is to have you reacting so negatively and emotionally that you don't examine the claims calmly and rationally. Emotions > facts. If no-one appalled, then it isn't doing its job.
- hylaride 2y ago
  For the schools that have them, I consider legacy admissions to be more appalling. Those are overwhelmingly white. The other issue is that many of these schools have not been expanding enrolment numbers to population growth. Less seats per-capita mean more exclusivity over time. Get rid of them both (DEI and legacy admissions) and the government should create a policy that those endowments need to be used to expand the size of the schools.