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I was surprised to not see the "/s" at the end. Big-Tech deciding that all our work belongs to them: Good Small Code hosting platform does not want to be farm

I was surprised to not see the "/s" at the end. Big-Tech deciding that all our work belongs to them: Good Small Code hosting platform does not want to be farmed like a Field of Corn: Bad

dale_glass 2y ago
Why would you expect a /s? I understand their standpoint: it's their infrastructure, and their bills. However my concerns are with my project, not with their infrastructure bills. I seek to maximize the prominence, usability and general success of my project, and as such I want it to have a presence everywhere it can have one. I want ChatGPT/copilot/etc to know it exists and to write code for it, just in case that brings in more users. Blocking abusive behavior? Sure. But I very specifically disagree with the blanket prohibition of "Anything used to feed a machine learning model". I do not see it being in my interest.
- candiddevmike 2y ago
  You don't get any attribution, so how can you tell if they're using it or not? This seems like a philosophical argument instead of a technical one.
  - dale_glass 2y ago
    What attribution are you talking about? Here's what I mean: You can go to ChatGPT and ask it: "please write a Python script that prints "Hello world" in red". And that works. And you can also go to ChatGPT and ask it: "Please write an Overte script that makes an object red when it's clicked". And I really like that this works. I certainly don't want it to stop working because Sourcehut has something against LLMs.
    - candiddevmike 2y ago
      I see, I encountered something similar with a DSL. For my use case, I had better results by having a LLM scrape a well formed doc reference page than a source code repo, I'd assume that same behavior extends to training data.
      - dale_glass 2y ago
        Oh, I'm sure there's all sorts of practical considerations regarding optimal LLM training. All the same though, I don't like my host being so opinionated. I don't want a host that has something against any of the common search engines, and I don't want a host that has something against LLMs. Hosts should be as neutral as possible.
    - mtlynch 2y ago
      I don't think the use cases you're describing are what any critics are talking about. How do you feel about someone with more funding than you going to an LLM and saying, "Reimplement the entire Overte source for me, but change it superficially so that Overte has a hard time suing me for stealing their IP?"
      - dale_glass 2y ago
        We're Apache licensed. A LLM seems very overkill.
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  > I seek to maximize the prominence, usability and general success of my project, and as such I want it to have a presence everywhere it can have one SourceHut is doing exactly how I expect them to act, and that's a good thing. What did you expect from SourceHut, and why didn't you take this mindset off to GitHub in the first place?
  - dale_glass 2y ago
    > What did you expect from SourceHut, and why didn't you take this mindset off to GitHub in the first place? I expect them (especially if they charge for it) to work in my interests as much as possible. Sure, defending themselves against abuse is fine. They have to survive to keep providing service. However I don't appreciate the imposition of their own philosophy to something that isn't theirs. This here: # Disallowed: # [...] # - Anything used to feed a machine learning model Is not okay with me.
    - mrweasel 2y ago
      What do you suggest they do? Or is it just the political position that's the problem? The result is the same, pretty much every single AI company is abusing sourcehut. They have to do something, because I pay for a service, and if I can't use it, I'm not paying in the future. If that means blocking the AI companies that's fine, they can contact me if they want to use my code, we'll figure something out.
      - dale_glass 2y ago
        I expect hosts to be neutral to the maximum possible extent. For example I expect a host not to have an arbitrary beef with Bing or Kagi, or to refuse to allow connections from France. Blocking can of course be rarely necessary, but what I want from a host is a blocking policy as minimal and selective as possible. Yes, I understand it's a lot of work and is quite inconvenient, but especially if I'm paying for a service, I'm interested in my interests, not in what's convenient for the host.

I was surprised to not see the "/s" at the end. Big-Tech deciding that all our work belongs to them: Good Small Code hosting platform does not want to be farmed like a Field of Corn: Bad

dale_glass 2y ago

Why would you expect a /s? I understand their standpoint: it's their infrastructure, and their bills. However my concerns are with my project, not with their infrastructure bills. I seek to maximize the prominence, usability and general success of my project, and as such I want it to have a presence everywhere it can have one. I want ChatGPT/copilot/etc to know it exists and to write code for it, just in case that brings in more users. Blocking abusive behavior? Sure. But I very specifically disagree with the blanket prohibition of "Anything used to feed a machine learning model". I do not see it being in my interest.

candiddevmike 2y ago
You don't get any attribution, so how can you tell if they're using it or not? This seems like a philosophical argument instead of a technical one.
- dale_glass 2y ago
  What attribution are you talking about? Here's what I mean: You can go to ChatGPT and ask it: "please write a Python script that prints "Hello world" in red". And that works. And you can also go to ChatGPT and ask it: "Please write an Overte script that makes an object red when it's clicked". And I really like that this works. I certainly don't want it to stop working because Sourcehut has something against LLMs.
  - candiddevmike 2y ago
    I see, I encountered something similar with a DSL. For my use case, I had better results by having a LLM scrape a well formed doc reference page than a source code repo, I'd assume that same behavior extends to training data.
    - dale_glass 2y ago
      Oh, I'm sure there's all sorts of practical considerations regarding optimal LLM training. All the same though, I don't like my host being so opinionated. I don't want a host that has something against any of the common search engines, and I don't want a host that has something against LLMs. Hosts should be as neutral as possible.
  - mtlynch 2y ago
    I don't think the use cases you're describing are what any critics are talking about. How do you feel about someone with more funding than you going to an LLM and saying, "Reimplement the entire Overte source for me, but change it superficially so that Overte has a hard time suing me for stealing their IP?"
    - dale_glass 2y ago
      We're Apache licensed. A LLM seems very overkill.
whilenot-dev 2y ago
> I seek to maximize the prominence, usability and general success of my project, and as such I want it to have a presence everywhere it can have one SourceHut is doing exactly how I expect them to act, and that's a good thing. What did you expect from SourceHut, and why didn't you take this mindset off to GitHub in the first place?
- dale_glass 2y ago
  > What did you expect from SourceHut, and why didn't you take this mindset off to GitHub in the first place? I expect them (especially if they charge for it) to work in my interests as much as possible. Sure, defending themselves against abuse is fine. They have to survive to keep providing service. However I don't appreciate the imposition of their own philosophy to something that isn't theirs. This here: # Disallowed: # [...] # - Anything used to feed a machine learning model Is not okay with me.
  - mrweasel 2y ago
    What do you suggest they do? Or is it just the political position that's the problem? The result is the same, pretty much every single AI company is abusing sourcehut. They have to do something, because I pay for a service, and if I can't use it, I'm not paying in the future. If that means blocking the AI companies that's fine, they can contact me if they want to use my code, we'll figure something out.
    - dale_glass 2y ago
      I expect hosts to be neutral to the maximum possible extent. For example I expect a host not to have an arbitrary beef with Bing or Kagi, or to refuse to allow connections from France. Blocking can of course be rarely necessary, but what I want from a host is a blocking policy as minimal and selective as possible. Yes, I understand it's a lot of work and is quite inconvenient, but especially if I'm paying for a service, I'm interested in my interests, not in what's convenient for the host.