5 ms·

Probably Tan? You are wholly ignoring my point: these are factual and obvious issues. Identifying them and proposing obvious solutions isn't being a Trump suppo

by _bin_ 1y ago

Probably Tan? You are wholly ignoring my point: these are factual and obvious issues. Identifying them and proposing obvious solutions isn't being a Trump supporter. Trump does not have a monopoly on every position besides radical progressive. Said progressives had their chance - more than enough chances - at fixing the issues in SF "their way". When one solution fails, it is natural and sensible to try others. This is why you can see SF voters shifting their positions too. I do not think that an incredibly leftist city magically turned into trump supporters. It's not helpful for the left to act like Trump has a monopoly on legitimate use of law enforcement and maintaining some level of order.

resters 1y ago
Not trying to ignore your point. Generally the "right wing" view of crime is that it is solved by increasing coercive (authoritarian?) measures such as policing and punishment, with the implicit (sometimes explicit, as below) idea that it is the moral failings of the "criminals" that lead to crime, rather than systemic forces. Tan (net worth $100M) explicitly rejects the systemic forces perspective and focuses on the moral failings of the weakest in society: “Crime isn’t some abstract social problem—it’s people choosing to break the law. Stop excusing shoplifters and drug dealers as ‘victims of circumstance.’ We need consequences, not endless debates about root causes.”
- readthenotes1 1y ago
  Tan sounds like he's got some experience with people. You can't always hug it out, and there are indeed people who put their wants and needs above those of others
- _bin_ 1y ago
  I think I'd actually read many left-wingers more charitably here; the mainstream democrat opinion is still that systemic forces impact crime rates and should be addressed but not that those justify discarding policing or order in the mean time. That's a uniquely radical progressive take, by which the SF government was unfortunately captured. I think Tan's statement here is more a strong reaction against the failed progressive version seeking to drag the overton window in SF back towards normalcy. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but Tan and YC have actually stuck around, unlike other people and companies who have simply left, so I'm guessing they're approaching this in good faith. This aligns pretty well with my personal view. Maybe we can go figure out root causes later. Depending on those causes and the possible means to address them, maybe we can enact policy changes to reduce the amount of crime in the future. All that is, however, secondary to what we must do today: return to zero-tolerance policies for petty crime to make the city liveable again.
  - resters 1y ago
    > That's a uniquely radical progressive take "Radical left-wing lunatics" I'd argue that it's not at all radical, and that what characterizes SF's unique challenge has more to do with urban planning, geography, and climate than anything else: Affluent areas are on big hills with little mass transit, which concentrates both mass transit and poverty in specific low lying areas, which also happen to suffer from minimal or bad urban planning. The climate makes SF attractive to unhoused people, and so they are drawn to the tolerant atmosphere and tend to thrive there even while dealing with addiction and substance abuse, mental health issues, etc. (compared to other places). In other places they might be inmates or might be significantly malnourished, but SF offers a better balance, which is why so many find themselves there. Mild weather in winter and summer, a sanctuary city mentality, and the high value of personal freedom that led to the Castro and Haight being epicenters for social progress and culture over the years. Cosmopolitanism and tolerance abound, and so of course we'll see our underclass more active, more overt, less beaten down, and notably more offensive to those who seek a country club atmosphere. SF has 30% lower mortality rate for homeless people than other sanctuary cities like Chicago. The problem is that the right-wing perspective presents the downtrodden effectively as rats who are a scourge on society, so most people overlook that people (yes they are human beings) migrate to SF for a better life, and in spite of the challenges they face, many find it.
    - _bin_ 1y ago
      Please don't misquote me; I didn't call people lunatics. There are radical wings to both the left and right. You can argue that, but that's true is that the problems in SF have objectively gotten much, much worse. All the problems you're calling out are true, and many of the reasons you're saying homeless stay are true. What's also true is that there's a big discontinuity in crime rates and decay of public order that matches much more closely with changes in policing and justice along with some social programs.
      - resters 1y ago
        I quoted you with the > symbol and Trump with normal quotes. Apologies for the confusion. > decay of public order that matches much more closely with changes in policing and justice I don't think anyone is claiming that SF could not implement Singapore style policing (for example) and see improvements in "public order". Right wing solutions abound, everything from putting people in rehabilitation camps, mental hospitals, mandatory jail time for minor offenses, inpatient substance abuse facilities, chemical castration of the poor, deportations to El Salvador, etc. Many in the US have a right wing impulse when thinking about certain types of criminality, typically the kinds of crimes committed by the underclass. This impulse builds on disgust, fear and dehumanization, but the foundational element is moral judgment of the weakest and most vulnerable members of society. I think it's helpful to have a mental heuristic to reduce susceptibility to this kind of thinking. Consider, for example, the amount of insider trading that occurred in financial markets recently from all of the pumping of markets with various tariff announcements. The money stolen via insider trading would be more than enough to buy a 3000 square foot home and personal chef services for 15 years for every single homeless person in the bay area. Let's not pretend that smashed car windows are the only kind of crime that matters. In today's world with such rampant fraud and white collar crime everywhere, anyone who uses their platform to focus people's attention on the crime of the weakest among us clearly has a very right wing view of whose lawlessness needs to be stopped and whose should be permitted.

by _bin_ 1y ago

resters 1y ago

Not trying to ignore your point. Generally the "right wing" view of crime is that it is solved by increasing coercive (authoritarian?) measures such as policing and punishment, with the implicit (sometimes explicit, as below) idea that it is the moral failings of the "criminals" that lead to crime, rather than systemic forces. Tan (net worth $100M) explicitly rejects the systemic forces perspective and focuses on the moral failings of the weakest in society: “Crime isn’t some abstract social problem—it’s people choosing to break the law. Stop excusing shoplifters and drug dealers as ‘victims of circumstance.’ We need consequences, not endless debates about root causes.”

readthenotes1 1y ago
Tan sounds like he's got some experience with people. You can't always hug it out, and there are indeed people who put their wants and needs above those of others
_bin_ 1y ago
I think I'd actually read many left-wingers more charitably here; the mainstream democrat opinion is still that systemic forces impact crime rates and should be addressed but not that those justify discarding policing or order in the mean time. That's a uniquely radical progressive take, by which the SF government was unfortunately captured. I think Tan's statement here is more a strong reaction against the failed progressive version seeking to drag the overton window in SF back towards normalcy. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but Tan and YC have actually stuck around, unlike other people and companies who have simply left, so I'm guessing they're approaching this in good faith. This aligns pretty well with my personal view. Maybe we can go figure out root causes later. Depending on those causes and the possible means to address them, maybe we can enact policy changes to reduce the amount of crime in the future. All that is, however, secondary to what we must do today: return to zero-tolerance policies for petty crime to make the city liveable again.
- resters 1y ago
  > That's a uniquely radical progressive take "Radical left-wing lunatics" I'd argue that it's not at all radical, and that what characterizes SF's unique challenge has more to do with urban planning, geography, and climate than anything else: Affluent areas are on big hills with little mass transit, which concentrates both mass transit and poverty in specific low lying areas, which also happen to suffer from minimal or bad urban planning. The climate makes SF attractive to unhoused people, and so they are drawn to the tolerant atmosphere and tend to thrive there even while dealing with addiction and substance abuse, mental health issues, etc. (compared to other places). In other places they might be inmates or might be significantly malnourished, but SF offers a better balance, which is why so many find themselves there. Mild weather in winter and summer, a sanctuary city mentality, and the high value of personal freedom that led to the Castro and Haight being epicenters for social progress and culture over the years. Cosmopolitanism and tolerance abound, and so of course we'll see our underclass more active, more overt, less beaten down, and notably more offensive to those who seek a country club atmosphere. SF has 30% lower mortality rate for homeless people than other sanctuary cities like Chicago. The problem is that the right-wing perspective presents the downtrodden effectively as rats who are a scourge on society, so most people overlook that people (yes they are human beings) migrate to SF for a better life, and in spite of the challenges they face, many find it.
  - _bin_ 1y ago
    Please don't misquote me; I didn't call people lunatics. There are radical wings to both the left and right. You can argue that, but that's true is that the problems in SF have objectively gotten much, much worse. All the problems you're calling out are true, and many of the reasons you're saying homeless stay are true. What's also true is that there's a big discontinuity in crime rates and decay of public order that matches much more closely with changes in policing and justice along with some social programs.
    - resters 1y ago
      I quoted you with the > symbol and Trump with normal quotes. Apologies for the confusion. > decay of public order that matches much more closely with changes in policing and justice I don't think anyone is claiming that SF could not implement Singapore style policing (for example) and see improvements in "public order". Right wing solutions abound, everything from putting people in rehabilitation camps, mental hospitals, mandatory jail time for minor offenses, inpatient substance abuse facilities, chemical castration of the poor, deportations to El Salvador, etc. Many in the US have a right wing impulse when thinking about certain types of criminality, typically the kinds of crimes committed by the underclass. This impulse builds on disgust, fear and dehumanization, but the foundational element is moral judgment of the weakest and most vulnerable members of society. I think it's helpful to have a mental heuristic to reduce susceptibility to this kind of thinking. Consider, for example, the amount of insider trading that occurred in financial markets recently from all of the pumping of markets with various tariff announcements. The money stolen via insider trading would be more than enough to buy a 3000 square foot home and personal chef services for 15 years for every single homeless person in the bay area. Let's not pretend that smashed car windows are the only kind of crime that matters. In today's world with such rampant fraud and white collar crime everywhere, anyone who uses their platform to focus people's attention on the crime of the weakest among us clearly has a very right wing view of whose lawlessness needs to be stopped and whose should be permitted.