10 ms·

It's not particularly constructive to talk about "extermination camps" when there is no particular evidence of that. Disrespecting rule of law is bad but an agg

by _bin_ 1y ago

It's not particularly constructive to talk about "extermination camps" when there is no particular evidence of that. Disrespecting rule of law is bad but an aggressive deportation policy after years of ignoring it, given that we don't have the infrastructure to support eleven million cases, is at least understandable in motivation. It's the only practical way to deport all of them, not a few thousand like most admins end up doing, though I disagree with these means of addressing the issue as opposed to forcing self-deports.

mschuster91 1y ago
> It's not particularly constructive to talk about "extermination camps" when there is no particular evidence of that. Yet. That's the thing. Remember the "Hang Mike Pence" chants, the gallows they brought Jan 6th? The administration and its fanbase are not shy of calling for terminal violence. I'm German, we all learn in school how the 1933-1945 regime started. And it didn't start with extermination campaigns directly back then as well - it started with confiscating and burning books, with one of the first targets being the Hirschfeld Institute that was researching LGBT questions. And over time, pressure ratcheted up, and target lists increased. People were snatched from the streets, secret police rounded up houses, and eventually they ended up corralling off entire neighborhoods, swiftly disposing of the people in the extermination camps.
- _bin_ 1y ago
  Are we just pretending that calls for political violence aren't more or less de rigueur in today's political climate? Years of "fiery but mostly peaceful" protests, of people celebrating the multiple assassination attempts on Trump, etc. I'm "both sidesing" this not out of a pathological compulsion to defend right-wingers but because pretending this is unique to the right wing means we'll misidentify the underlying cause and fail to fix it.
naught0 1y ago
What do you mean "ignoring" it? Biden deported hundreds of thousands of people, surpassing even Trump's records. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o If the only practical way to deport the "right" amount of people is to disobey the courts and catch innocent Americans in the dragnet and deny them of due process, then maybe we shouldn't do that. You say that their motivations are understandable, but so are the reasons behind extermination camps. They are ruthlessly efficient. Having a reason for doing something does not make it right, just, or legal. At the end of the day, we have sent dozens of immigrants with legal status and no criminal history to El Salvador's version of Guantanamo Bay, where people do indeed die with regularity. Here's something from last year: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-salvadors-prisons-deaths-anti-gang-crackdown-rcna161327 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-salvadors-prisons-deat... So, we're sending Americans of a certain stripe (color) to camps in other countries where there is no escape, and where it is not unlikely they will perish. What do you call this?
- _bin_ 1y ago
  This is such a straw man. The motives behind extermination camps aren't, actually. The reasonable response to someone entering your country illegally is to remove him. This is proportionate and just. I think Trump is very much skirting the rules and figure courts will smack him over it, but it's about time we changed the system so illegals can be quickly removed without fifty thousand appeals. Otherwise the system does not work and we are conceding our borders to a flood of third-worlders, which is a bad idea. It's also essential we alter our asylum system such that anybody who skips over another country to get here is automatically denied. If someone is fleeing guatemala and has to travel up through central America to get here, he should not be granted asylum. Stop in any one of those countries you passed along the way. Note that legal status can be revoked for anyone besides a citizen. This is actually one of the less illegal moves trump's admin has made. I have a problem with what appears to be targeting based on support for palestine but not with the core concept: they all have to go back. Every single one of them.
  - naught0 1y ago
    > conceding our borders to a flood of third-worlders Feels a bit like a mask off moment. there's a mountain of evidence that shows immigrants are the backbone of important parts of our economy, pay taxes, and commit crimes at a far lower rate than native born people. The laws and processes around immigration are a significant factor in creating "illegals." Why not adjust our laws to accommodate normal, innocent people who come here simply to work, live, and survive? If we applied more resources to processing immigrants and making it easier to come here legally it would be a boon to our population, economy, and subjectively, our culture. The opposite is true for deporting 11 million people. The cost outweigh the benefits at every single turn, unless your ultimate benefit is removing the supposed "third worlders" i.e. brown people. (aside: why is a person from the third world an inherent negative?) The border should be permeable to people escaping oppression or looking for a better life. It's not like we're hurting for space or money, we just actually have to DO something. Here is some great fact-based review of our immigration policies (from a source typically opposed to my worldview, mind you) https://www.cato.org/testimony/real-cost-open-border-how-americans-are-paying-price#u-s-policy-makes-legal-immigration-impossible-for-nearly-all https://www.cato.org/testimony/real-cost-open-border-how-ame... I hope you take the time to read through. on your final point, regarding Palestinian support: what about the perfectly legal immigrants that we have deported because of political views? That seems particularly fascist to me.
mschuster91 1y ago
> It's not particularly constructive to talk about "extermination camps" when there is no particular evidence of that. Just FYI: Trump's border czar Tom Homan literally said he plans to "eradicate" supposed "foreign threats" on Fox News [1]. I seriously don't know how many more masks have to fall before people finally take this administration and its actors beyond Trump serious. There is no way to downplay, deny or otherwise misinterpret Project 2025. It is happening right in front of your eyes. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmuqfzef7l22 https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmuqfzef7l22

by _bin_ 1y ago

mschuster91 1y ago

> It's not particularly constructive to talk about "extermination camps" when there is no particular evidence of that. Yet. That's the thing. Remember the "Hang Mike Pence" chants, the gallows they brought Jan 6th? The administration and its fanbase are not shy of calling for terminal violence. I'm German, we all learn in school how the 1933-1945 regime started. And it didn't start with extermination campaigns directly back then as well - it started with confiscating and burning books, with one of the first targets being the Hirschfeld Institute that was researching LGBT questions. And over time, pressure ratcheted up, and target lists increased. People were snatched from the streets, secret police rounded up houses, and eventually they ended up corralling off entire neighborhoods, swiftly disposing of the people in the extermination camps.

_bin_ 1y ago
Are we just pretending that calls for political violence aren't more or less de rigueur in today's political climate? Years of "fiery but mostly peaceful" protests, of people celebrating the multiple assassination attempts on Trump, etc. I'm "both sidesing" this not out of a pathological compulsion to defend right-wingers but because pretending this is unique to the right wing means we'll misidentify the underlying cause and fail to fix it.

naught0 1y ago

What do you mean "ignoring" it? Biden deported hundreds of thousands of people, surpassing even Trump's records. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o If the only practical way to deport the "right" amount of people is to disobey the courts and catch innocent Americans in the dragnet and deny them of due process, then maybe we shouldn't do that. You say that their motivations are understandable, but so are the reasons behind extermination camps. They are ruthlessly efficient. Having a reason for doing something does not make it right, just, or legal. At the end of the day, we have sent dozens of immigrants with legal status and no criminal history to El Salvador's version of Guantanamo Bay, where people do indeed die with regularity. Here's something from last year: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-salvadors-prisons-deaths-anti-gang-crackdown-rcna161327 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-salvadors-prisons-deat... So, we're sending Americans of a certain stripe (color) to camps in other countries where there is no escape, and where it is not unlikely they will perish. What do you call this?

_bin_ 1y ago
This is such a straw man. The motives behind extermination camps aren't, actually. The reasonable response to someone entering your country illegally is to remove him. This is proportionate and just. I think Trump is very much skirting the rules and figure courts will smack him over it, but it's about time we changed the system so illegals can be quickly removed without fifty thousand appeals. Otherwise the system does not work and we are conceding our borders to a flood of third-worlders, which is a bad idea. It's also essential we alter our asylum system such that anybody who skips over another country to get here is automatically denied. If someone is fleeing guatemala and has to travel up through central America to get here, he should not be granted asylum. Stop in any one of those countries you passed along the way. Note that legal status can be revoked for anyone besides a citizen. This is actually one of the less illegal moves trump's admin has made. I have a problem with what appears to be targeting based on support for palestine but not with the core concept: they all have to go back. Every single one of them.
- naught0 1y ago
  > conceding our borders to a flood of third-worlders Feels a bit like a mask off moment. there's a mountain of evidence that shows immigrants are the backbone of important parts of our economy, pay taxes, and commit crimes at a far lower rate than native born people. The laws and processes around immigration are a significant factor in creating "illegals." Why not adjust our laws to accommodate normal, innocent people who come here simply to work, live, and survive? If we applied more resources to processing immigrants and making it easier to come here legally it would be a boon to our population, economy, and subjectively, our culture. The opposite is true for deporting 11 million people. The cost outweigh the benefits at every single turn, unless your ultimate benefit is removing the supposed "third worlders" i.e. brown people. (aside: why is a person from the third world an inherent negative?) The border should be permeable to people escaping oppression or looking for a better life. It's not like we're hurting for space or money, we just actually have to DO something. Here is some great fact-based review of our immigration policies (from a source typically opposed to my worldview, mind you) https://www.cato.org/testimony/real-cost-open-border-how-americans-are-paying-price#u-s-policy-makes-legal-immigration-impossible-for-nearly-all https://www.cato.org/testimony/real-cost-open-border-how-ame... I hope you take the time to read through. on your final point, regarding Palestinian support: what about the perfectly legal immigrants that we have deported because of political views? That seems particularly fascist to me.

mschuster91 1y ago

> It's not particularly constructive to talk about "extermination camps" when there is no particular evidence of that. Just FYI: Trump's border czar Tom Homan literally said he plans to "eradicate" supposed "foreign threats" on Fox News [1]. I seriously don't know how many more masks have to fall before people finally take this administration and its actors beyond Trump serious. There is no way to downplay, deny or otherwise misinterpret Project 2025. It is happening right in front of your eyes. [1] https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmuqfzef7l22 https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmuqfzef7l22