4 ms·

America? No. The shareholder class underestimates it. A lot of Americans realize that it's going to be hard, which is why we should have made an example out

America? No. The shareholder class underestimates it. A lot of Americans realize that it's going to be hard, which is why we should have made an example out of the first guy to profit off of sending manufacturing off to the shores of a geopolitical rival.

knowaveragejoe 2y ago
Americans also have more free time and disposable income because of that decision, among others. Why would you want them to struggle more?
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  The people in the areas where things used to be made certainly have more free time, but they don't have disposable income. Unless we're just here to repeat canards from the 1990s given by financiers which explained why it was good to shut down the main employers for entire towns.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    US unemployment rate floats along at about 4%, and is kept from going any lower to prevent inflation. There are localized problems - and it's all very similar to the post-Thatcher UK - but you cannot be serious in imagining that employment would magically return to the exact spots it left. In fact that's one of the sub-problems OP talks about: so you want a US Shenzen. Where are you going to put it? (UK equivalent: we're discussing keeping Scunthorpe blast furnaces open, so that we can have a "secure" supply of "domestic" steel .. made entirely from imported ingredients. Because the mines the plant was built to refine are empty)
  - ZeroGravitas 2y ago
    It's odd how little factories moving from union areas to red states gets mentioned in this context. Areas gutted, jobs lost and some lesser number of jobs with less benefits and pay created elsewhere. So many political ideas seem to only be allowed to be discussed if you can add a garnish of racism or xenophobia to them.
    - potato3732842 2y ago
      You don't hear people complaining about that because the states that are the net losers of those jobs are full of people who think factories are dirty and unsightly and pay garbage wages, etc, etc, hence why they're fine with their politicians implementing the policies that are driving them out in the first place. Sure, the blue collar people know what's up but they're outnumbered by the white collar economy handily enough that it never becomes a leading political gripe you hear about from these states. Whereas when states that aren't behaving that way lose jobs, factories and industries to Mexico or China they're all "hey WTF" over it because they actually cared and didn't want that economic activity driven off.
    - themaninthedark 2y ago
      Boeing started a plant in SC: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/10/boeing-opens-750-million-plant-south-carolina/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/10/boeing-open... Then later moved all 787 production there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544139 https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/09/09/44441906/the-death-of-industrial-seattle https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/09/09/44441906/the-dea... While the main articles seemed to have a good riddance tone, the HN comment section seemed to be more restricted in that view. >It's hard to believe that the current Boeing leadership will turn things around with even less focus on quality and talented workers. Feels like they should be moving back towards engineering driven approaches.
numbers_guy 2y ago
Question: if the jobs were off shored, but the resulting profits were shared more equally, would Americans still complain?
- potato3732842 2y ago
  I wouldn't expect "now that you've caught us we'll pay you to shut up" to go over well.
  - numbers_guy 2y ago
    "Caught us" implies that the capitalists, the people who own the manufacturing plants, did something immoral, or illegal or under handed, but in the economic system that everyone championed in America, especially at that time, this was simply allowed. Seems like the fundamental anger is about the injustice of the economic system that leads to such consequences.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  Yes, definitely yes. America suffers from a flattened income curve. There are many many more people earning $100k+ today than in 1960 (inflation adjusted). America has an envy problem first, equality problem second, spoiled child problem third.
  - numbers_guy 2y ago
    I would not necessarily say that the envy is unjustified. If you live in a rich country you ideally want all citizens to become wealthy. Else, irrespective of income, you will be lorded over by those who are magnitudes richer than you.
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      I'm not talking about billionairs or the ultra wealthy. I am talking about the 60-90% top earners category. You can cut out the top 10% of earners in the country and it still wouldn't do much to change the situation for those in the <60% earning percentiles. To put it short; the reason you cannot afford a home isn't because of Bezos, Musk, and Blakrock. It's because the other bidders have STEM masters degrees and dual income high paying jobs, and probably a few hints of financial literacy thrown in too.

knowaveragejoe 2y ago

Americans also have more free time and disposable income because of that decision, among others. Why would you want them to struggle more?

lenerdenator 2y ago
The people in the areas where things used to be made certainly have more free time, but they don't have disposable income. Unless we're just here to repeat canards from the 1990s given by financiers which explained why it was good to shut down the main employers for entire towns.
- pjc50 2y ago
  US unemployment rate floats along at about 4%, and is kept from going any lower to prevent inflation. There are localized problems - and it's all very similar to the post-Thatcher UK - but you cannot be serious in imagining that employment would magically return to the exact spots it left. In fact that's one of the sub-problems OP talks about: so you want a US Shenzen. Where are you going to put it? (UK equivalent: we're discussing keeping Scunthorpe blast furnaces open, so that we can have a "secure" supply of "domestic" steel .. made entirely from imported ingredients. Because the mines the plant was built to refine are empty)
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  It's odd how little factories moving from union areas to red states gets mentioned in this context. Areas gutted, jobs lost and some lesser number of jobs with less benefits and pay created elsewhere. So many political ideas seem to only be allowed to be discussed if you can add a garnish of racism or xenophobia to them.
  - potato3732842 2y ago
    You don't hear people complaining about that because the states that are the net losers of those jobs are full of people who think factories are dirty and unsightly and pay garbage wages, etc, etc, hence why they're fine with their politicians implementing the policies that are driving them out in the first place. Sure, the blue collar people know what's up but they're outnumbered by the white collar economy handily enough that it never becomes a leading political gripe you hear about from these states. Whereas when states that aren't behaving that way lose jobs, factories and industries to Mexico or China they're all "hey WTF" over it because they actually cared and didn't want that economic activity driven off.
  - themaninthedark 2y ago
    Boeing started a plant in SC: https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/10/boeing-opens-750-million-plant-south-carolina/ https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jun/10/boeing-open... Then later moved all 787 production there: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544139 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24544139 https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/09/09/44441906/the-death-of-industrial-seattle https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2020/09/09/44441906/the-dea... While the main articles seemed to have a good riddance tone, the HN comment section seemed to be more restricted in that view. >It's hard to believe that the current Boeing leadership will turn things around with even less focus on quality and talented workers. Feels like they should be moving back towards engineering driven approaches.

numbers_guy 2y ago

Question: if the jobs were off shored, but the resulting profits were shared more equally, would Americans still complain?

potato3732842 2y ago
I wouldn't expect "now that you've caught us we'll pay you to shut up" to go over well.
- numbers_guy 2y ago
  "Caught us" implies that the capitalists, the people who own the manufacturing plants, did something immoral, or illegal or under handed, but in the economic system that everyone championed in America, especially at that time, this was simply allowed. Seems like the fundamental anger is about the injustice of the economic system that leads to such consequences.
Workaccount2 2y ago
Yes, definitely yes. America suffers from a flattened income curve. There are many many more people earning $100k+ today than in 1960 (inflation adjusted). America has an envy problem first, equality problem second, spoiled child problem third.
- numbers_guy 2y ago
  I would not necessarily say that the envy is unjustified. If you live in a rich country you ideally want all citizens to become wealthy. Else, irrespective of income, you will be lorded over by those who are magnitudes richer than you.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    I'm not talking about billionairs or the ultra wealthy. I am talking about the 60-90% top earners category. You can cut out the top 10% of earners in the country and it still wouldn't do much to change the situation for those in the <60% earning percentiles. To put it short; the reason you cannot afford a home isn't because of Bezos, Musk, and Blakrock. It's because the other bidders have STEM masters degrees and dual income high paying jobs, and probably a few hints of financial literacy thrown in too.