6 ms·

Sometimes I want to cook a home meal. If I wanted to open a large world class fast food chain, I wouldn't be cooking home meals then. That would be silly. Cop

Sometimes I want to cook a home meal. If I wanted to open a large world class fast food chain, I wouldn't be cooking home meals then. That would be silly. Copilot can help me cook the equivalent of a McDonalds special in terms of software. It's good, I think McDonalds is delicious. But it cannot help me cook a home meal software. It will insist that my home made fries must go in a little red box, and my fish sandwich needs only half a slice of cheese. Deeply into that metaphor, maybe someone who has only worked for fast food chains might forget that a lot of good industrial dishes are variations of what previously were home cooked meals. I am glad that copilot can help young cooks to become fast food workers. That really looks like something. Well, I take pleasure in cooking home meal software. Can you make a copilot that helps with that? You know what, nevermind. I don't need a copilot to cook home meals. I have a bunch of really good old books and I trust my taste. It's not like some big company is going to be interested in some random amateur dish, is it? It was definitely not cooked for them.

barotalomey 2y ago
[flagged]
- llbbdd 2y ago
  Obtuse and missing the point on purpose.
  - barotalomey 2y ago
    Obtuse maybe, but I'm not missing the point. Their point is nonsensical, given that LLM generated code isn't "as good as fast food compared to home made meals" or even comparable to "food". Go ahead and explain why I'm missing the point.
    - selcuka 2y ago
      The point is, for most projects there is nothing wrong with writing McDonald's level code. It's not as healthy or tasty as a homemade meal, but it will perform its main function (i.e. prevent you from starving).
      - barotalomey 2y ago
        Eh, if that was the point then please, go ahead and show me this magical AI system that produce "edible" level of code then. All I seen so far is badly generated boilerplate and enough template spaghetti to confuse some CS dropouts by the looks of it.
  - JodieBenitez 2y ago
    still a good advice
- silisili 2y ago
  They've been around forever and I believe number 2 or 3 in number of stores open in the US. You don't get that way without some people liking your product. It's fine that some people don't like it, but is ridiculous to think your tastes apply to everyone.
caspper69 2y ago
I am in the middle of my third AI assisted project. I disagree ~90%. If you prompt an LLM like an architect and feed it code rather than expecting it to write your code, both ChatGPT 4o and Claude 3.7 Sonnet do a great job. Do they mess up? Regularly. But the key is to guide the LLM and not let the LLM guide you, otherwise you'll end up in purgatory. It takes some time to get used to what types of prompts work. Remember, LLMs are just tools; used in a naive way, they can be a drain, but used effectively they can be great. The typing speed alone is something I could never match. But just like anything, you have to know what you're doing. Don't go slapping together a bunch of source files that they spit out. Be specific, be firm, tell it what to review first, what's important and what is not. Mention specific algorithms. Detail exactly how you want something to fit together, or describe shortcomings or pitfalls. I'll be damned if they don't get it most of the time.
- alganet 2y ago
  > Be specific, be firm, tell it what to review first, what's important and what is not [...] Detail exactly how you want something to fit together [...] You mean like in a fast food chain? I know how to use it. All of that was already implied in my original comment. Sometimes though, I want to cook without a rigid mindset.
- skydhash 2y ago
  I wonder how many lines of code you write in a day. Most PR I’ve seen has a diff in the lowe 2 digits, unless it’s refactoring or formatting.
  - caspper69 2y ago
    If I had to guess, probably a couple hundred lines a day, maybe more if I get in a groove or have a deadline. But with an LLM, that number goes to about 500 or so, 200 of which are real code and not definitions of some kind. Truthfully, that’s where the LLMs shine. I have this enum with 50 variants, and need to build a dictionary (with further constraints and more complex objects). That shit takes forever even with cut & paste, unless you code with code, and those one-offs aren’t my cup of tea anymore.
doug_durham 2y ago
Pretty weak analogy. Copilot can show you how to make either McDonalds or a Michelin starred restaurant meal. It is endlessly variable.
- ehutch79 2y ago
  I can do neither. McDonald’s is a system for delivering food fast and cheap at scale. It breaks down when making one burger. If you’re not a trained chef, you will not pump out Michelin star meals, even using the same recipe.
- roncesvalles 2y ago
  Asking the LLM for something is like doing an "Ask the Audience" in Who Wants to be a Millionaire. You're basically polling the consensus answer to the question you're asking.
  - selcuka 2y ago
    > You're basically polling the consensus answer to the question you're asking. There is nothing wrong with going with the consensus answer. Sure, you can't invent an O(N) sorting algorithm with the consensus, but LLMs can definitely write good, maintainable code. Michelin star analogy might be an exaggeration, but it can help cook a good homemade meal, possibly even better than most wannabe home cooks.
    - alganet 2y ago
      Dude, ask ChatGPT to explain the analogy for you. It understood well enough. It will save both of us some time. Maybe AI is useful for some things after all.
      - selcuka 2y ago
        Not sure about the reason for the personal attack, but my comment wasn't a reply to you. Michelin star restaurant was not even your analogy. I guess you are right, though. AI is useful for some things. At least it reads the prompt before responding.
motorest 2y ago
> Copilot can help me cook the equivalent of a McDonalds special in terms of software. It's good, I think McDonalds is delicious. No. The likes of Copilot help you cook the meal you'd like, how you'd like it. In some cases it forgets to crack open eggs, in other cases it cooks a meal far better than whatever you'd be able to pull together in your home kitchen. And does it in seconds. The "does it in seconds" is the key factor. Everyone heard of the "million monkeys with a typewriter" theorem. The likes of Copilot is like that, but it takes queues and gathers context and is supervised by you. The likes of Copilot is more in line with a lazy intern that you need to hand-hold to get them to finish their assignment. And with enough feedback and retries, it does finish the assignment. With flying colors.
- ohgr 2y ago
  Sometimes it poisons your family to death. That’s the dangerous bit.
- int_19h 2y ago
  Cook a meal, yes. "How you'd like it", no. You have to use the languages that have a large enough presence in its training set that it knows them well, and ditto for frameworks and libraries. Once you step out of that zone, quality rapidly plummets. "Does it in seconds" is kinda true if you ignore the "supervised by you" part. That part - reading through the generated diffs to catch (sometimes very subtle) errors - can take a while. And sure, you'd have the same problem with the intern. But the intern learns from you. The LLM will make the same mistakes again in the same circumstances. Yes, I know they do have memory now, but it my experience that RAG-based stuff is not particularly reliable. I suspect this might improve once hardware is fast enough that you can use a (smallish) helper LLM for RAG with reasonable perf, but we aren't quite there yet.

barotalomey 2y ago

[flagged]

llbbdd 2y ago
Obtuse and missing the point on purpose.
- barotalomey 2y ago
  Obtuse maybe, but I'm not missing the point. Their point is nonsensical, given that LLM generated code isn't "as good as fast food compared to home made meals" or even comparable to "food". Go ahead and explain why I'm missing the point.
  - selcuka 2y ago
    The point is, for most projects there is nothing wrong with writing McDonald's level code. It's not as healthy or tasty as a homemade meal, but it will perform its main function (i.e. prevent you from starving).
    - barotalomey 2y ago
      Eh, if that was the point then please, go ahead and show me this magical AI system that produce "edible" level of code then. All I seen so far is badly generated boilerplate and enough template spaghetti to confuse some CS dropouts by the looks of it.
- JodieBenitez 2y ago
  still a good advice
silisili 2y ago
They've been around forever and I believe number 2 or 3 in number of stores open in the US. You don't get that way without some people liking your product. It's fine that some people don't like it, but is ridiculous to think your tastes apply to everyone.

caspper69 2y ago

I am in the middle of my third AI assisted project. I disagree ~90%. If you prompt an LLM like an architect and feed it code rather than expecting it to write your code, both ChatGPT 4o and Claude 3.7 Sonnet do a great job. Do they mess up? Regularly. But the key is to guide the LLM and not let the LLM guide you, otherwise you'll end up in purgatory. It takes some time to get used to what types of prompts work. Remember, LLMs are just tools; used in a naive way, they can be a drain, but used effectively they can be great. The typing speed alone is something I could never match. But just like anything, you have to know what you're doing. Don't go slapping together a bunch of source files that they spit out. Be specific, be firm, tell it what to review first, what's important and what is not. Mention specific algorithms. Detail exactly how you want something to fit together, or describe shortcomings or pitfalls. I'll be damned if they don't get it most of the time.

alganet 2y ago
> Be specific, be firm, tell it what to review first, what's important and what is not [...] Detail exactly how you want something to fit together [...] You mean like in a fast food chain? I know how to use it. All of that was already implied in my original comment. Sometimes though, I want to cook without a rigid mindset.
skydhash 2y ago
I wonder how many lines of code you write in a day. Most PR I’ve seen has a diff in the lowe 2 digits, unless it’s refactoring or formatting.
- caspper69 2y ago
  If I had to guess, probably a couple hundred lines a day, maybe more if I get in a groove or have a deadline. But with an LLM, that number goes to about 500 or so, 200 of which are real code and not definitions of some kind. Truthfully, that’s where the LLMs shine. I have this enum with 50 variants, and need to build a dictionary (with further constraints and more complex objects). That shit takes forever even with cut & paste, unless you code with code, and those one-offs aren’t my cup of tea anymore.

doug_durham 2y ago

Pretty weak analogy. Copilot can show you how to make either McDonalds or a Michelin starred restaurant meal. It is endlessly variable.

ehutch79 2y ago
I can do neither. McDonald’s is a system for delivering food fast and cheap at scale. It breaks down when making one burger. If you’re not a trained chef, you will not pump out Michelin star meals, even using the same recipe.
roncesvalles 2y ago
Asking the LLM for something is like doing an "Ask the Audience" in Who Wants to be a Millionaire. You're basically polling the consensus answer to the question you're asking.
- selcuka 2y ago
  > You're basically polling the consensus answer to the question you're asking. There is nothing wrong with going with the consensus answer. Sure, you can't invent an O(N) sorting algorithm with the consensus, but LLMs can definitely write good, maintainable code. Michelin star analogy might be an exaggeration, but it can help cook a good homemade meal, possibly even better than most wannabe home cooks.
  - alganet 2y ago
    Dude, ask ChatGPT to explain the analogy for you. It understood well enough. It will save both of us some time. Maybe AI is useful for some things after all.
    - selcuka 2y ago
      Not sure about the reason for the personal attack, but my comment wasn't a reply to you. Michelin star restaurant was not even your analogy. I guess you are right, though. AI is useful for some things. At least it reads the prompt before responding.

motorest 2y ago

> Copilot can help me cook the equivalent of a McDonalds special in terms of software. It's good, I think McDonalds is delicious. No. The likes of Copilot help you cook the meal you'd like, how you'd like it. In some cases it forgets to crack open eggs, in other cases it cooks a meal far better than whatever you'd be able to pull together in your home kitchen. And does it in seconds. The "does it in seconds" is the key factor. Everyone heard of the "million monkeys with a typewriter" theorem. The likes of Copilot is like that, but it takes queues and gathers context and is supervised by you. The likes of Copilot is more in line with a lazy intern that you need to hand-hold to get them to finish their assignment. And with enough feedback and retries, it does finish the assignment. With flying colors.

ohgr 2y ago
Sometimes it poisons your family to death. That’s the dangerous bit.
int_19h 2y ago
Cook a meal, yes. "How you'd like it", no. You have to use the languages that have a large enough presence in its training set that it knows them well, and ditto for frameworks and libraries. Once you step out of that zone, quality rapidly plummets. "Does it in seconds" is kinda true if you ignore the "supervised by you" part. That part - reading through the generated diffs to catch (sometimes very subtle) errors - can take a while. And sure, you'd have the same problem with the intern. But the intern learns from you. The LLM will make the same mistakes again in the same circumstances. Yes, I know they do have memory now, but it my experience that RAG-based stuff is not particularly reliable. I suspect this might improve once hardware is fast enough that you can use a (smallish) helper LLM for RAG with reasonable perf, but we aren't quite there yet.