3 ms·

Let's explore the concept of "cloud based ones" neurons. Let's say your brain has just three neurons, connected with each other. You remove one of them, and con

Let's explore the concept of "cloud based ones" neurons. Let's say your brain has just three neurons, connected with each other. You remove one of them, and connect the two remaining one an external terminal - a physical device capable of transmitting electrical currents, being controlled by some complicated software "in the cloud". That physical device becomes the third neuron. Instead of one terminal, it could be two different devices, together playing the role of the original third neuron for each of the two other original neurons. For simplicity, let's assume there's just one terminal, serving both remaining original neurons, just like the third original neuron did. From the point of view of the two remaining biological neurons, nothing has changed. But from the point of view of the third neuron - the replaced one - the system did change. Now it is connected to three other terminals: two original one, and one other physical terminal "in the cloud". That other terminal in the cloud is part of the software, so it is connected to potentially billions of other terminals (e.g. transistors). And all of them are now involved in playing the role of the original third neuron that we replaced. So we effectively replaced a system of three interconnected neurons with a system of billions of interconnected neurons. This can have a profound effect on the "consciousness" of the original brain (in quotes because I don't consciousness is possible with just three neurons). Can you poke holes in the reasoning above?

542354234235 2y ago
>Can you poke holes in the reasoning above? I don’t see why I would. It would change you and I said that in my original comment. But it would change you slowly over time on the order of years, much like how children change dramatically from say 7 to 17. They are still the same person even though their mental capacity and personality of grown and evolved significantly. I should have said a billion neurons a month, instead of a week though, since weekly would be replacement in less than two years but monthly would be over 8 years. >So we effectively replaced a system of three interconnected neurons with a system of billions of interconnected neurons If I had any quibble, it would be this statement. I while I would say it replaces a system of 3 parts with one with billions, I wouldn’t say it is effectively billions of neurons. In the same way I would say that emulating a mechanical watch in software would have much more transistors per watch part emulated, I wouldn’t say there were effectively billions of second hands.
- kadushka 2y ago
  We should clarify the definition of "uploading". I see two cases: 1. We gradually replace each neuron in-place - without any external connections. This means a biological brain slowly turns into a silicon brain (or whatever material used for new neurons) 2. We gradually replace each neuron with a connection to an external computational system which provides the signals that the original neuron would output. This is what I mean when I say "brain uploading". The first case is more straightforward, and I'm not discussing it here - I expect it to be possible when the technology is ready. The second case might have fundamental issues. The main issue is about preservation of consciousness - let's try to define it first. Consciousness is a property of a brain, which most likely depends on the signals between neurons, and which might or might not additionally depend on each neuron internal electrochemical state. When we change a brain we change its consciousness. If we change it too much, we might alter consciousness to the degree where it is not longer the same identity. This might be happening to a degree as a person grows, though I'd argue that the person would still be the same, in a sense that the person would consider himself to remain the same person over the years. For example, I remember myself 20 years ago, and even though I was somewhat different in terms of views, habits, drives, etc, I'm sure I was still me - I was not my neighbor Mike - I'm still the same captain of mostly the same ship. If we replace neurons as in case 1 above, I believe the continuity of consciousness can be preserved. But in case 2, I'm not so sure, because we are fundamentally changing the structure of the brain, not just individual components. Going back to my original example of just 3 neurons, replacing one neuron with a silicon based device in-place does not fundamentally change the overall structure of the 3-neuron brain. It's still just 3 neurons operating together as a whole. However, if we replace one neuron with a connection to an external computer, we no longer have the 3-neuron brain. We have 2 neurons which operate as before, because they still receive the same inputs from the third neuron as before, but the third neuron has fundamentally changed - it is now receiving external signals that the original third neuron did not receive, and therefore, the structure of the original brain is now different. I don't know if we can claim the consciousness of the original 3-neuron brain is preserved. The problem is that the other two neurons cannot adapt to this change, because from their point of view nothing has changed. Now if we consider that the brain has 100B neurons, and we replaced 50B neurons per case 2 - now I'm not sure what is happening to the consciousness because half of the brain is receiving external signals from some complex computational system. Does new consciousness extend to that external system? Why, or why not? If yes, how is it impacted? Re: "emulating a mechanical watch in software". Can we upload the mechanical watch to the cloud? No, we can only replicate it. But that is not relevant to our discussion, because a mechanical watch has no consciousness which could change or be transferred.

542354234235 2y ago

>Can you poke holes in the reasoning above? I don’t see why I would. It would change you and I said that in my original comment. But it would change you slowly over time on the order of years, much like how children change dramatically from say 7 to 17. They are still the same person even though their mental capacity and personality of grown and evolved significantly. I should have said a billion neurons a month, instead of a week though, since weekly would be replacement in less than two years but monthly would be over 8 years. >So we effectively replaced a system of three interconnected neurons with a system of billions of interconnected neurons If I had any quibble, it would be this statement. I while I would say it replaces a system of 3 parts with one with billions, I wouldn’t say it is effectively billions of neurons. In the same way I would say that emulating a mechanical watch in software would have much more transistors per watch part emulated, I wouldn’t say there were effectively billions of second hands.

kadushka 2y ago
We should clarify the definition of "uploading". I see two cases: 1. We gradually replace each neuron in-place - without any external connections. This means a biological brain slowly turns into a silicon brain (or whatever material used for new neurons) 2. We gradually replace each neuron with a connection to an external computational system which provides the signals that the original neuron would output. This is what I mean when I say "brain uploading". The first case is more straightforward, and I'm not discussing it here - I expect it to be possible when the technology is ready. The second case might have fundamental issues. The main issue is about preservation of consciousness - let's try to define it first. Consciousness is a property of a brain, which most likely depends on the signals between neurons, and which might or might not additionally depend on each neuron internal electrochemical state. When we change a brain we change its consciousness. If we change it too much, we might alter consciousness to the degree where it is not longer the same identity. This might be happening to a degree as a person grows, though I'd argue that the person would still be the same, in a sense that the person would consider himself to remain the same person over the years. For example, I remember myself 20 years ago, and even though I was somewhat different in terms of views, habits, drives, etc, I'm sure I was still me - I was not my neighbor Mike - I'm still the same captain of mostly the same ship. If we replace neurons as in case 1 above, I believe the continuity of consciousness can be preserved. But in case 2, I'm not so sure, because we are fundamentally changing the structure of the brain, not just individual components. Going back to my original example of just 3 neurons, replacing one neuron with a silicon based device in-place does not fundamentally change the overall structure of the 3-neuron brain. It's still just 3 neurons operating together as a whole. However, if we replace one neuron with a connection to an external computer, we no longer have the 3-neuron brain. We have 2 neurons which operate as before, because they still receive the same inputs from the third neuron as before, but the third neuron has fundamentally changed - it is now receiving external signals that the original third neuron did not receive, and therefore, the structure of the original brain is now different. I don't know if we can claim the consciousness of the original 3-neuron brain is preserved. The problem is that the other two neurons cannot adapt to this change, because from their point of view nothing has changed. Now if we consider that the brain has 100B neurons, and we replaced 50B neurons per case 2 - now I'm not sure what is happening to the consciousness because half of the brain is receiving external signals from some complex computational system. Does new consciousness extend to that external system? Why, or why not? If yes, how is it impacted? Re: "emulating a mechanical watch in software". Can we upload the mechanical watch to the cloud? No, we can only replicate it. But that is not relevant to our discussion, because a mechanical watch has no consciousness which could change or be transferred.