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Imagine if South Vietnam had remained independent. If it had become a thriving prosperous free democracy like South Korea or Taiwan. Would we still be talking

Imagine if South Vietnam had remained independent. If it had become a thriving prosperous free democracy like South Korea or Taiwan. Would we still be talking about “Vietnam’s storied anti colonialism” today? How often do we talk about Korean anti colonialism or Chinese anti colonialism nowadays? Not much. When people talk about Korea and China nowadays it is in the context of the differences between North and South Korea and the differences between mainland China and the free democratic Chinese[1] island that is Taiwan. When I look back at the American counterculture movement and how triumphant those people were that the Vietnam War was over…and then you read about the end of South Vietnam….the fall of Saigon… and then you look at where South Korea and Taiwan are today….you can’t help but wonder… And many of these stories of Vietnam are paternalistic. They deny the agency of the South Vietnamese. [1] By this I mean Taiwan is Chinese in terms of culture.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
> How often do we talk about Korean anti colonialism or Chinese anti colonialism nowadays? Not much. Americans don't talk much about Chinese anti-colonialism nowadays, but people in other parts of the world (particularly in China and Africa) do.
deleted 1y ago
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pvg 1y ago
How often do we talk about Korean anti colonialism or Chinese anti colonialism nowadays? These are central to the recent histories of both countries and a big part of their own national mythologies. Comes up directly and indirectly all the time.
wqaatwt 1y ago
> magine if South Vietnam had remained independent. If it had become a thriving prosperous free democracy That’s not obvious. For starters South Korea was a brutal and oppressive dictatorship during and after the war (not that much better than NK). It only became a democracy about the same time (coincidentally) as the USSR began collapsing. Same as Taiwan for that matter… Also it’s a sample of one.. there are plenty of other countries where the US intervened that ended up not doing very well. > you can’t help but wonder About what? Waging the war indefinitely or direct invasion of North Vietnam? Because there weren’t really that many other options..
- ViktorRay 1y ago
  It’s not just a sample of one. You are forgetting about the Marshall Plan. About West and East Germany. About when the Berlin Wall came down. There’s no reason South Vietnam couldn’t have become like South Korea or Taiwan one day. We are all human beings and deep down aren’t we all alike and want the same things? https://youtu.be/5F_aHt34a-g https://youtu.be/5F_aHt34a-g
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    > You are forgetting No, I just don’t think they are applicable. Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam were are all very poor and rural Germany was one of the main industrial powers for the at least 50-60 years preceding WW2. > Marshall Plan the total inflation adjusted amount of grants and loans that went to Germany was equal to about 32 billion dollars. That’s less than the amount of economic aid US gave to Afghanistan since 2001. But yeah, I agree that there are no biological reasons preventing any poor or underdeveloped from becoming successful.
- rayiner 1y ago
  > That’s not obvious. For starters South Korea was a brutal and oppressive dictatorship during and after the war (not that much better than NK). So what? So were most European countries before they became democracies. Name a successful democracy that didn’t go through such a phase to consolidate the state?
npn 1y ago
> Imagine if South Vietnam had remained independent. If it had become a thriving prosperous free democracy like South Korea or Taiwan. will never happen. it annoys me to no end that ever americans out there always assume that the war was between north and south vietnam, while in reality it was not. VCs were mostly southern people, the conflicts were mostly between south vietnam and the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam which was found and led by southern vietnamese. which mean the conflict would never stop, even without the help from north vietnam or soviet.

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago

> How often do we talk about Korean anti colonialism or Chinese anti colonialism nowadays? Not much. Americans don't talk much about Chinese anti-colonialism nowadays, but people in other parts of the world (particularly in China and Africa) do.

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pvg 1y ago

How often do we talk about Korean anti colonialism or Chinese anti colonialism nowadays? These are central to the recent histories of both countries and a big part of their own national mythologies. Comes up directly and indirectly all the time.

wqaatwt 1y ago

> magine if South Vietnam had remained independent. If it had become a thriving prosperous free democracy That’s not obvious. For starters South Korea was a brutal and oppressive dictatorship during and after the war (not that much better than NK). It only became a democracy about the same time (coincidentally) as the USSR began collapsing. Same as Taiwan for that matter… Also it’s a sample of one.. there are plenty of other countries where the US intervened that ended up not doing very well. > you can’t help but wonder About what? Waging the war indefinitely or direct invasion of North Vietnam? Because there weren’t really that many other options..

ViktorRay 1y ago
It’s not just a sample of one. You are forgetting about the Marshall Plan. About West and East Germany. About when the Berlin Wall came down. There’s no reason South Vietnam couldn’t have become like South Korea or Taiwan one day. We are all human beings and deep down aren’t we all alike and want the same things? https://youtu.be/5F_aHt34a-g https://youtu.be/5F_aHt34a-g
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  > You are forgetting No, I just don’t think they are applicable. Korea, Taiwan and Vietnam were are all very poor and rural Germany was one of the main industrial powers for the at least 50-60 years preceding WW2. > Marshall Plan the total inflation adjusted amount of grants and loans that went to Germany was equal to about 32 billion dollars. That’s less than the amount of economic aid US gave to Afghanistan since 2001. But yeah, I agree that there are no biological reasons preventing any poor or underdeveloped from becoming successful.
rayiner 1y ago
> That’s not obvious. For starters South Korea was a brutal and oppressive dictatorship during and after the war (not that much better than NK). So what? So were most European countries before they became democracies. Name a successful democracy that didn’t go through such a phase to consolidate the state?

npn 1y ago

> Imagine if South Vietnam had remained independent. If it had become a thriving prosperous free democracy like South Korea or Taiwan. will never happen. it annoys me to no end that ever americans out there always assume that the war was between north and south vietnam, while in reality it was not. VCs were mostly southern people, the conflicts were mostly between south vietnam and the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam which was found and led by southern vietnamese. which mean the conflict would never stop, even without the help from north vietnam or soviet.