5 ms·

The example of the suicide attempt with fake medication causing the subject's blood pressure to drop to dangerously low levels got me thinking. If the belief t

by dag11 14y ago

The example of the suicide attempt with fake medication causing the subject's blood pressure to drop to dangerously low levels got me thinking. If the belief that (s)he would die was almost enough to actually kill him/her, would it be possible for someone to end their own life with just their thoughts alone?

tzs 14y ago
Through meditation, people have learned to exhibit some amazing control over things that were thought to be entirely outside of conscious control. Perhaps the best example of this is Wim Hof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof That man can spend nearly two hours sitting nearly naked immersed (except for his head) in an ice bath, without his core temperature dropping to dangerous levels and without suffering frostbite. He has also done such insane things as run a marathon in a desert without water. Here's the pubmed link to a paper by some researchers who studied Hof to see what the hell was going on: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22685240 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22685240 It certainly seems plausible to me that there are probably many more things that we currently think are not consciously controllable this way that will turn out to be. It would not at all be surprising if one or more of those turn out to be things that you could use to kill yourself.
ChrisNorstrom 14y ago
That's some deep stuff. Let's go further... If one gave sugar pills to 100 dreadfully depressed patients at their lowest point and claimed it would make their heart stop beating within a few hours. Would any of the patients actually die from believing it? And if an autopsy confirmed the dead patients died from heart failure would the death be ruled a murder, assisted suicide, or suicide?
mistercow 14y ago
There really isn't enough information in that anecdotal retelling to make heads or tails of it, but from that limited information, I'd say that person probably just had a panic attack. Panic attacks cause a spike in blood pressure for most people, but for some people the opposite will sometimes happen. I used to have them from needles, and in high school I went to the ER for suspected meningitis. They had me hooked up to monitor my vitals, and when a nurse stuck me with an IV, the room suddenly filled up with panicking medical personnel because my blood pressure hit the floor. So my guess would be the subject in question took a bunch of pills, freaked out and went to the ER, and then had a panic attack because they thought they were going to die. But to answer your question, I think that if you can, by panicking, alter your blood pressure (up or down) enough to kill yourself, that just means you had some pretty messed up cardiovascular issues. You wouldn't call that "killing yourself by thought alone"; you'd call it "dying of cardiovascular disease".
- cperciva 14y ago
  I'm not a doctor, but your case sounds more like a vasovagal response than a panic attack. (I have an interesting vasovagal response -- I can draw my own blood just fine, and a nurse can draw my blood if I don't watch; but I've fainted from watching a nurse draw my blood.)
  - mistercow 14y ago
    Interesting. I had not heard of that, and since I have anxiety disorder (I have had panic attacks about other things), I always assumed it was just part of the same thing, and it certainly feels similar. I guess that makes sense given that panic attacks are a feedback loop; maybe the vasovagal response was just a trigger.
sp332 14y ago
I'm not sure about this, because usually when you pass out your "expectations" would stop affecting you much and your normal heartbeat, breathing etc. would resume. I've accidentally passed out from squeezing my vagus nerve, it's not too hard to do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve but as soon as you're unconscious things generally go back to normal.
borplk 14y ago
There is a very old story that my grandparents swore is true. It's in another language so forgive me for what is lost in translation. There was a shop owner in the Bazaar who was very miser. One day a lady says 'you are a very miser man, how are you gonna give up your life?' the man jokingly lies down straight on the floor, closes his eyes, and says 'just like this'. And he actually dies.

by dag11 14y ago

tzs 14y ago

Through meditation, people have learned to exhibit some amazing control over things that were thought to be entirely outside of conscious control. Perhaps the best example of this is Wim Hof: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof That man can spend nearly two hours sitting nearly naked immersed (except for his head) in an ice bath, without his core temperature dropping to dangerous levels and without suffering frostbite. He has also done such insane things as run a marathon in a desert without water. Here's the pubmed link to a paper by some researchers who studied Hof to see what the hell was going on: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22685240 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22685240 It certainly seems plausible to me that there are probably many more things that we currently think are not consciously controllable this way that will turn out to be. It would not at all be surprising if one or more of those turn out to be things that you could use to kill yourself.

ChrisNorstrom 14y ago

That's some deep stuff. Let's go further... If one gave sugar pills to 100 dreadfully depressed patients at their lowest point and claimed it would make their heart stop beating within a few hours. Would any of the patients actually die from believing it? And if an autopsy confirmed the dead patients died from heart failure would the death be ruled a murder, assisted suicide, or suicide?

mistercow 14y ago

There really isn't enough information in that anecdotal retelling to make heads or tails of it, but from that limited information, I'd say that person probably just had a panic attack. Panic attacks cause a spike in blood pressure for most people, but for some people the opposite will sometimes happen. I used to have them from needles, and in high school I went to the ER for suspected meningitis. They had me hooked up to monitor my vitals, and when a nurse stuck me with an IV, the room suddenly filled up with panicking medical personnel because my blood pressure hit the floor. So my guess would be the subject in question took a bunch of pills, freaked out and went to the ER, and then had a panic attack because they thought they were going to die. But to answer your question, I think that if you can, by panicking, alter your blood pressure (up or down) enough to kill yourself, that just means you had some pretty messed up cardiovascular issues. You wouldn't call that "killing yourself by thought alone"; you'd call it "dying of cardiovascular disease".

cperciva 14y ago
I'm not a doctor, but your case sounds more like a vasovagal response than a panic attack. (I have an interesting vasovagal response -- I can draw my own blood just fine, and a nurse can draw my blood if I don't watch; but I've fainted from watching a nurse draw my blood.)
- mistercow 14y ago
  Interesting. I had not heard of that, and since I have anxiety disorder (I have had panic attacks about other things), I always assumed it was just part of the same thing, and it certainly feels similar. I guess that makes sense given that panic attacks are a feedback loop; maybe the vasovagal response was just a trigger.

sp332 14y ago

I'm not sure about this, because usually when you pass out your "expectations" would stop affecting you much and your normal heartbeat, breathing etc. would resume. I've accidentally passed out from squeezing my vagus nerve, it's not too hard to do http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve but as soon as you're unconscious things generally go back to normal.

borplk 14y ago

There is a very old story that my grandparents swore is true. It's in another language so forgive me for what is lost in translation. There was a shop owner in the Bazaar who was very miser. One day a lady says 'you are a very miser man, how are you gonna give up your life?' the man jokingly lies down straight on the floor, closes his eyes, and says 'just like this'. And he actually dies.