4 ms·

Harvard admitted it needs to "...broaden the intellectual and viewpoint diversity within our community..." This is a no-brainer considering only 2.3% of their

Harvard admitted it needs to "...broaden the intellectual and viewpoint diversity within our community..." This is a no-brainer considering only 2.3% of their faculty identifies as conservative. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/5/22/faculty-survey-2023-politics/ https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/5/22/faculty-survey-...

pesus 1y ago
How is this a no brainer? How many of their faculty identity as believers in a flat earth? Are we concerned about that viewpoint being underrepresented as well?
comte7092 1y ago
Yeah what Harvard definitely needs is more faculty who will defend sending people to Salvadoran prisons without due process. /s
arp242 1y ago
So pick one or the other: having a broad representation from many walks of life is important or it's not. You can't mix or match depending on which group you like. And that is what I'm commenting on. I'm not a fan of Trump's "war on DEI" but if it was applied with some consistency I could take it as a genuine difference in viewpoints. That would be okay. But the movement is railing hard and vitriolic against anything with even a whiff of "DEI" while applying wildly different standards to themselves. This is hard to take as a genuine difference in viewpoints.
janalsncm 1y ago
I am against admissions discrimination so I disagree. Conservatives should get into schools based on merit.
- arrosenberg 1y ago
  Do they ask for your political ideology on the Harvard application?
  - janalsncm 1y ago
    No, which is why it’s so surprising so few are able to get in.
    - arrosenberg 1y ago
      How can we know that without knowing how many apply? How many 18 year-olds even have a real ideology? I know mine shifted a lot during college.
      - janalsncm 1y ago
        If conservatives are applying at a more than 3% rate then either 1) Harvard is using some method besides directly asking for their ideology to discriminate against conservatives or 2) they are being rejected on non-ideological grounds e.g. merit. If they are not applying at a rate of over 3% then there is no discrimination.
        arrosenberg 1y ago
        It sounds like you don't really know if they are being discriminated against, even though you are stating it as fact. The 3% number could be biased due to any number of reasons, conservatives may not apply to Harvard for ideological reasons, or student ideologies may shift during education. It's possible that you can identify right-wing high schoolers based on their writing, but I don't really see a problem with rejecting students if they are touting unpopular and/or discriminatory ideas. Universities have the right to maintain a culture of openness and learning, and conservatism is often antithetical to that.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
    De facto yes. This is what essays, particularly "diversity statements" are for. Also, if you're an academic seeking employment, your work and professional connections will make it clear.
    - deleted 1y ago
fisherjeff 1y ago
Well, 2.3% of the Faculty of Arts & Sciences. I would bet that, say, the business school has a slightly different makeup…
- NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
  We're talking about going from 2.3% to maybe 13%. And this isn't a reflection of attitudes among people who are potentially employed there, it's a reflection of overt, rigid filtering on the basis of political beliefs.
  - alexb_ 1y ago
    Typically, in order to be employed at a college, you have to be smart and aware of the world. This qualification disqualifies basically all conservatives.
    - NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
      That's not true. Painting the "other" as some sort of one-dimensional malevolent retard isn't doing you or anyone else any favors. I promise. There are real people, even smart people, on the other team. They have thoughts, kids, impressive degrees, goals unrelated to politics. They enjoy sunshine and hiking. They think they're doing what they're doing for good reasons. They believe themselves to be good people. They might even believe you to be a good person.
      - alimw 1y ago
        > They believe themselves to be good people. As should be more widely known, this is a bad start to actually being good people.
LPisGood 1y ago
American conservatives are increasingly not grounded in facts and reality. This isn’t partisan, it’s just an observation of reality. I used to identify as a conservative, but they have become less and less grounded as a party.
const_cast 1y ago
Conservatives will make observations such as "the most educated people are almost never conservative" and they will conclude that it's not their ideology that may be on shaky grounds, but rather the concept of education itself.
- Der_Einzige 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - const_cast 1y ago
    > Most professors in non stem departments are Marxist So, as I alluded to before, the issue here isn't the education - you are delusional. I don't know how to help you because what you're saying is just not aligned with reality and that's not something I can fix. For the record, you can analyze the text of various scholars even if you don't agree with them, and that's a huge part of critical thinking and higher education. Understand the historical, social, and economic context that lead someone like Marx to his ideology is important. We do this for Hitler and Mussolini all the time, but I don't see anyone claiming that educators are fascists. Meaning, you, and others, have a severe bias here. You're missing, looking past, the instances that disagree with your perception. So then all that's left is the stuff that aligns with your perception, and such you've constructed a perfect delusion. This idea that conservative socioeconomics and the "invisible hand" is the One True theory of everything and nothing else should even so much as uttered, lest you be a communist, is, in it of itself, as you say, "fashionable nonsense". In fact, you cannot truly understand the context for 20th century fiscal policy without understanding the impact of Marx and other ideologues that came after him.
    - Der_Einzige 1y ago
      [flagged]
- inglor_cz 1y ago
  "Most American academia" !== "most educated people" (much less so if taken globally). Many Americans would be seriously surprised by the balance of left and right at continental European universities. It is nowhere near as one-sided. And Asian universities are a completely different world. Generalizing from the extremely lopsided ratios in academia of the Anglosphere to the global educated class is somewhat unreliable.
rstuart4133 1y ago
> This is a no-brainer considering only 2.3% of their faculty identifies as conservative. That's true now. It wasn't always true. From: https://www.aei.org/articles/are-colleges-and-universities-too-liberal-what-the-research-says-about-the-political-composition-of-campuses-and-campus-climate/ https://www.aei.org/articles/are-colleges-and-universities-t... - In 1989-1990, when HERI first fielded this survey, 42% of faculty identified as being on the left, 40% were moderate, and another 18% were on the right. - in 2016-2017, HERI found that 60% of the faculty identified as either far left or liberal compared to just 12% being conservative or far right Now you say it's 2.3% conservative. The universities argue they haven't changed, it's the politics of the right. I'd say they are correct as the right now to disavows and ridicules the output of universities on things like climate change, tariffs, vaccines, health, voter fraud in US elections ... well it's a long list. It wasn't like that 30 years ago. The universities are supposed to be intellectual power houses fearlessly seeking out fundamental truths and relationships, regardless of what the people in power might think of their discoveries. Both sides of politics once celebrated that. Now one side wants to control what types of thought the universities allow, demanding they monitor, snitch, report, and police the on ideas the conservative base don't like. That's directly opposed to how Universities operate. They allow and encourage all types of thought, but insist they be exposed to a torrent of opposing thoughts so only the soundest survive. Frankly, I'm amazed 2.3% still identify with a mob that clearly wants to undermine that. I'm guessing it will drop to near 0% now.
- ConspiracyFact 1y ago
  > Now one side wants to control what types of thought the universities allow, demanding they monitor, snitch, report, and police the on ideas the conservative base don't like. That's directly opposed to how Universities operate. Seriously?
toofy 1y ago
that’s the faculty of arts and sciences—is this administration going to mandate university economics and business schools —which likely lean heavily capitalist—demand ideological diversity and bring in more communists?
BobaFloutist 1y ago
And I bet that the % of their faculty that identify as flat earthers is even more egregious!
otterley 1y ago
You make it sound like modern conservatives possess the intellectual rigor and career achievements required to meet Harvard’s hiring bar.
latentcall 1y ago
Are conservatives a protected class now? We need DEI to make sure we hire enough conservatives in our company so we look super diverse

pesus 1y ago

How is this a no brainer? How many of their faculty identity as believers in a flat earth? Are we concerned about that viewpoint being underrepresented as well?

comte7092 1y ago

Yeah what Harvard definitely needs is more faculty who will defend sending people to Salvadoran prisons without due process. /s

arp242 1y ago

So pick one or the other: having a broad representation from many walks of life is important or it's not. You can't mix or match depending on which group you like. And that is what I'm commenting on. I'm not a fan of Trump's "war on DEI" but if it was applied with some consistency I could take it as a genuine difference in viewpoints. That would be okay. But the movement is railing hard and vitriolic against anything with even a whiff of "DEI" while applying wildly different standards to themselves. This is hard to take as a genuine difference in viewpoints.

janalsncm 1y ago

I am against admissions discrimination so I disagree. Conservatives should get into schools based on merit.

arrosenberg 1y ago
Do they ask for your political ideology on the Harvard application?
- janalsncm 1y ago
  No, which is why it’s so surprising so few are able to get in.
  - arrosenberg 1y ago
    How can we know that without knowing how many apply? How many 18 year-olds even have a real ideology? I know mine shifted a lot during college.
    - janalsncm 1y ago
      If conservatives are applying at a more than 3% rate then either 1) Harvard is using some method besides directly asking for their ideology to discriminate against conservatives or 2) they are being rejected on non-ideological grounds e.g. merit. If they are not applying at a rate of over 3% then there is no discrimination.
      - arrosenberg 1y ago
        It sounds like you don't really know if they are being discriminated against, even though you are stating it as fact. The 3% number could be biased due to any number of reasons, conservatives may not apply to Harvard for ideological reasons, or student ideologies may shift during education. It's possible that you can identify right-wing high schoolers based on their writing, but I don't really see a problem with rejecting students if they are touting unpopular and/or discriminatory ideas. Universities have the right to maintain a culture of openness and learning, and conservatism is often antithetical to that.
- NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
  De facto yes. This is what essays, particularly "diversity statements" are for. Also, if you're an academic seeking employment, your work and professional connections will make it clear.
  - deleted 1y ago

fisherjeff 1y ago

Well, 2.3% of the Faculty of Arts & Sciences. I would bet that, say, the business school has a slightly different makeup…

NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
We're talking about going from 2.3% to maybe 13%. And this isn't a reflection of attitudes among people who are potentially employed there, it's a reflection of overt, rigid filtering on the basis of political beliefs.
- alexb_ 1y ago
  Typically, in order to be employed at a college, you have to be smart and aware of the world. This qualification disqualifies basically all conservatives.
  - NoImmatureAdHom 1y ago
    That's not true. Painting the "other" as some sort of one-dimensional malevolent retard isn't doing you or anyone else any favors. I promise. There are real people, even smart people, on the other team. They have thoughts, kids, impressive degrees, goals unrelated to politics. They enjoy sunshine and hiking. They think they're doing what they're doing for good reasons. They believe themselves to be good people. They might even believe you to be a good person.
    - alimw 1y ago
      > They believe themselves to be good people. As should be more widely known, this is a bad start to actually being good people.

LPisGood 1y ago

American conservatives are increasingly not grounded in facts and reality. This isn’t partisan, it’s just an observation of reality. I used to identify as a conservative, but they have become less and less grounded as a party.

const_cast 1y ago

Conservatives will make observations such as "the most educated people are almost never conservative" and they will conclude that it's not their ideology that may be on shaky grounds, but rather the concept of education itself.

Der_Einzige 1y ago
[flagged]
- const_cast 1y ago
  > Most professors in non stem departments are Marxist So, as I alluded to before, the issue here isn't the education - you are delusional. I don't know how to help you because what you're saying is just not aligned with reality and that's not something I can fix. For the record, you can analyze the text of various scholars even if you don't agree with them, and that's a huge part of critical thinking and higher education. Understand the historical, social, and economic context that lead someone like Marx to his ideology is important. We do this for Hitler and Mussolini all the time, but I don't see anyone claiming that educators are fascists. Meaning, you, and others, have a severe bias here. You're missing, looking past, the instances that disagree with your perception. So then all that's left is the stuff that aligns with your perception, and such you've constructed a perfect delusion. This idea that conservative socioeconomics and the "invisible hand" is the One True theory of everything and nothing else should even so much as uttered, lest you be a communist, is, in it of itself, as you say, "fashionable nonsense". In fact, you cannot truly understand the context for 20th century fiscal policy without understanding the impact of Marx and other ideologues that came after him.
  - Der_Einzige 1y ago
    [flagged]
inglor_cz 1y ago
"Most American academia" !== "most educated people" (much less so if taken globally). Many Americans would be seriously surprised by the balance of left and right at continental European universities. It is nowhere near as one-sided. And Asian universities are a completely different world. Generalizing from the extremely lopsided ratios in academia of the Anglosphere to the global educated class is somewhat unreliable.

rstuart4133 1y ago

> This is a no-brainer considering only 2.3% of their faculty identifies as conservative. That's true now. It wasn't always true. From: https://www.aei.org/articles/are-colleges-and-universities-too-liberal-what-the-research-says-about-the-political-composition-of-campuses-and-campus-climate/ https://www.aei.org/articles/are-colleges-and-universities-t... - In 1989-1990, when HERI first fielded this survey, 42% of faculty identified as being on the left, 40% were moderate, and another 18% were on the right. - in 2016-2017, HERI found that 60% of the faculty identified as either far left or liberal compared to just 12% being conservative or far right Now you say it's 2.3% conservative. The universities argue they haven't changed, it's the politics of the right. I'd say they are correct as the right now to disavows and ridicules the output of universities on things like climate change, tariffs, vaccines, health, voter fraud in US elections ... well it's a long list. It wasn't like that 30 years ago. The universities are supposed to be intellectual power houses fearlessly seeking out fundamental truths and relationships, regardless of what the people in power might think of their discoveries. Both sides of politics once celebrated that. Now one side wants to control what types of thought the universities allow, demanding they monitor, snitch, report, and police the on ideas the conservative base don't like. That's directly opposed to how Universities operate. They allow and encourage all types of thought, but insist they be exposed to a torrent of opposing thoughts so only the soundest survive. Frankly, I'm amazed 2.3% still identify with a mob that clearly wants to undermine that. I'm guessing it will drop to near 0% now.

ConspiracyFact 1y ago
> Now one side wants to control what types of thought the universities allow, demanding they monitor, snitch, report, and police the on ideas the conservative base don't like. That's directly opposed to how Universities operate. Seriously?

toofy 1y ago

that’s the faculty of arts and sciences—is this administration going to mandate university economics and business schools —which likely lean heavily capitalist—demand ideological diversity and bring in more communists?

BobaFloutist 1y ago

And I bet that the % of their faculty that identify as flat earthers is even more egregious!

otterley 1y ago

You make it sound like modern conservatives possess the intellectual rigor and career achievements required to meet Harvard’s hiring bar.

latentcall 1y ago

Are conservatives a protected class now? We need DEI to make sure we hire enough conservatives in our company so we look super diverse