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If anything negative you can say about Israel is equated to antisemitism then Israel gets a free pass. Hamas engaged in terrorism, but Israel's response was out

If anything negative you can say about Israel is equated to antisemitism then Israel gets a free pass. Hamas engaged in terrorism, but Israel's response was out of proportion. Saying that aloud doesn't make one antisemitic. The ICC and UN are not antisemitic organizations for ordering arrest of Netanyahu and condemning Israel's use of excessive force.

settrans 1y ago
> If anything negative you can say about Israel is equated to antisemitism then Israel gets a free pass. I am not arguing this. Everyone is free to criticize Israel; when it becomes antisemitic is when you hold Jews to a different standard than you hold everyone else. > but Israel's response was out of proportion Why do you say this? What would a proportionate response have looked like to an attempt to conquer your country by firing 5,000 rockets while 6,000 people invaded and murdered everyone they could find? Bear in mind, that immediately afterwards, Hamas leaders promised to repeat October 7th again and again until Israel was annihilated.
- breadwinner 1y ago
  > when it becomes antisemitic is when you hold Jews to a different standard than you hold everyone else. And where it gets disturbing is when you make the claim of different standard without any evidence, and launch accusations of antisemitism. Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas. As of January 2025, at least 46,707 Palestinians have been reported killed, including about 18,000 children. Israel has a right to annihilate Hamas, but those 18,000 children were not Hamas.
  - TheGuyWhoCodes 1y ago
    1) Hamas run health ministry numbers are not trustworthy 2) You do know that Hamas uses children soldiers right? 3) Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas true, but most of them (pre war) and most west bank Palestinians (currently) support them 4) If Egypt allowed non combatants to flee, they would be safe, however they closed the door or asked 1000s of dollars in bribes, but then they couldn't be used against Israel like the Arab nations always do.
  - settrans 1y ago
    > Israel has a right to annihilate Hamas How should they go about this? What rules should they follow? And when other countries violate these rules, are you commensurately outraged?
    - breadwinner 1y ago
      Not committing genocide would be a good start. And yes, I am opposed to all genocide.
      - settrans 1y ago
        Well I obviously don't believe they are committing genocide. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, why are there more Gazans alive today than this time two years ago? Israel could turn Gaza into a parking lot overnight; why didn't they?
        breadwinner 1y ago
        Please backup your claim of more Gazans alive today. Gaza is a parking lot. In fact it is worse than a parking lot... it is not possible to park many cars there because of all the fallen buildings. (I am going by what I see on TV... not a single building is seen still left standing.)
        settrans 1y ago
        Save The Children estimates 50,000 births in Gaza in the first 9 months of the war, when the fighting was the most intense: https://www.savethechildren.net/news/women-self-inducing-labour-and-facing-life-threatening-complications-pregnancy-after-nine https://www.savethechildren.net/news/women-self-inducing-lab... Unless there have been zero births since this article was published, even if you take the 50,000 death estimate from Hamas at face value, the population has increased since the start of the war. Of course, there is reason to suspect the Hamas figures, since they have been systematically manipulated, don't distinguish combatant deaths, don't separate out deaths from natural causes, and don't call out deaths caused by misfired Palestinian rockets. The central camps have been almost totally untouched since the hostages are being kept there: https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-804993 https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-804993 (article is a few months old but this is still true). And even outside of these camps, 16+ hospitals remain operational in Gaza despite serving as terror HQ.
- jajuuka 1y ago
  >I am not arguing this. Everyone is free to criticize Israel; when it becomes antisemitic is when you hold Jews to a different standard than you hold everyone else. What different standard is being applied? >Why do you say this? What would a proportionate response have looked like to an attempt to conquer your country by firing 5,000 rockets while 6,000 people invaded and murdered everyone they could find? Bear in mind, that immediately afterwards, Hamas leaders promised to repeat October 7th again and again until Israel was annihilated. A proportionate response is not denying food, water, and medical aid to civilians. It's not destroying every school and hospital in the region. It's not committing genocide. You look at the situation as a zero sum game where only Israelis or Palestinians can live. Hamas is not all Palestinians and destroying their homes and families does not make them righteous or productive. Maybe taking some effort to address the issues that have created the circumstances of the attack in the first place would be the better option. Like giving Palestinians either their own country or at least equal status in Israel. Maybe not taking their land and settling it. One cannot maintain inequality and peace. 50,000 Palestinians lost their lives for 1,000 Israelis. Does that seem proportionate to you?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
TheGuyWhoCodes 1y ago
What would have been a proportional response? Is it a numbers game? lets do 2x? 5x? 10x? In the gilad shalit deal Palestinians established the proportion of 1 Israeli to 1027 Palestinians. So on Oct 7 - 1,195 were murdered, by your standards Israel should have killed 1,227,265 Palestinians.
- breadwinner 1y ago
  First of all, the proportional response should be delivered directly to the source: Iran. There are lots of bad guys in Gaza, but there are lots of innocent people too. Indiscriminately killing everyone is not the solution.
  - settrans 1y ago
    A) It's hard to argue that the war in Gaza was indiscriminate when the IDF achieved the highest combatant-to-civilian casualty ratio in the history of urban combat, despite Hamas hiding in tunnels underneath population centers. B) When soldiers flood across your border from a neighboring polity by the thousands, it would be an abdication of sovereignty not to defend against that immediate threat, regardless of the enemy's funding sources.
    - breadwinner 1y ago
      > highest combatant-to-civilian casualty ratio Very hard to believe.
      - settrans 1y ago
        Let's ask the world's leading expert in urban warfare, then: https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286 https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urb... https://www.linkedin.com/posts/johnwspencer2018_israel-has-done-more-to-prevent-civilian-activity-7192388569791930368-8RRL https://www.linkedin.com/posts/johnwspencer2018_israel-has-d... Note the falsification of Hamas casualty figures: https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-quietly-drops-thousands-deaths-122557133.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-quietly-drops-thousands-dea... https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hama...

settrans 1y ago

> If anything negative you can say about Israel is equated to antisemitism then Israel gets a free pass. I am not arguing this. Everyone is free to criticize Israel; when it becomes antisemitic is when you hold Jews to a different standard than you hold everyone else. > but Israel's response was out of proportion Why do you say this? What would a proportionate response have looked like to an attempt to conquer your country by firing 5,000 rockets while 6,000 people invaded and murdered everyone they could find? Bear in mind, that immediately afterwards, Hamas leaders promised to repeat October 7th again and again until Israel was annihilated.

breadwinner 1y ago
> when it becomes antisemitic is when you hold Jews to a different standard than you hold everyone else. And where it gets disturbing is when you make the claim of different standard without any evidence, and launch accusations of antisemitism. Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas. As of January 2025, at least 46,707 Palestinians have been reported killed, including about 18,000 children. Israel has a right to annihilate Hamas, but those 18,000 children were not Hamas.
- TheGuyWhoCodes 1y ago
  1) Hamas run health ministry numbers are not trustworthy 2) You do know that Hamas uses children soldiers right? 3) Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas true, but most of them (pre war) and most west bank Palestinians (currently) support them 4) If Egypt allowed non combatants to flee, they would be safe, however they closed the door or asked 1000s of dollars in bribes, but then they couldn't be used against Israel like the Arab nations always do.
- settrans 1y ago
  > Israel has a right to annihilate Hamas How should they go about this? What rules should they follow? And when other countries violate these rules, are you commensurately outraged?
  - breadwinner 1y ago
    Not committing genocide would be a good start. And yes, I am opposed to all genocide.
    - settrans 1y ago
      Well I obviously don't believe they are committing genocide. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, why are there more Gazans alive today than this time two years ago? Israel could turn Gaza into a parking lot overnight; why didn't they?
      - breadwinner 1y ago
        Please backup your claim of more Gazans alive today. Gaza is a parking lot. In fact it is worse than a parking lot... it is not possible to park many cars there because of all the fallen buildings. (I am going by what I see on TV... not a single building is seen still left standing.)
        settrans 1y ago
        Save The Children estimates 50,000 births in Gaza in the first 9 months of the war, when the fighting was the most intense: https://www.savethechildren.net/news/women-self-inducing-labour-and-facing-life-threatening-complications-pregnancy-after-nine https://www.savethechildren.net/news/women-self-inducing-lab... Unless there have been zero births since this article was published, even if you take the 50,000 death estimate from Hamas at face value, the population has increased since the start of the war. Of course, there is reason to suspect the Hamas figures, since they have been systematically manipulated, don't distinguish combatant deaths, don't separate out deaths from natural causes, and don't call out deaths caused by misfired Palestinian rockets. The central camps have been almost totally untouched since the hostages are being kept there: https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-804993 https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-804993 (article is a few months old but this is still true). And even outside of these camps, 16+ hospitals remain operational in Gaza despite serving as terror HQ.
jajuuka 1y ago
>I am not arguing this. Everyone is free to criticize Israel; when it becomes antisemitic is when you hold Jews to a different standard than you hold everyone else. What different standard is being applied? >Why do you say this? What would a proportionate response have looked like to an attempt to conquer your country by firing 5,000 rockets while 6,000 people invaded and murdered everyone they could find? Bear in mind, that immediately afterwards, Hamas leaders promised to repeat October 7th again and again until Israel was annihilated. A proportionate response is not denying food, water, and medical aid to civilians. It's not destroying every school and hospital in the region. It's not committing genocide. You look at the situation as a zero sum game where only Israelis or Palestinians can live. Hamas is not all Palestinians and destroying their homes and families does not make them righteous or productive. Maybe taking some effort to address the issues that have created the circumstances of the attack in the first place would be the better option. Like giving Palestinians either their own country or at least equal status in Israel. Maybe not taking their land and settling it. One cannot maintain inequality and peace. 50,000 Palestinians lost their lives for 1,000 Israelis. Does that seem proportionate to you?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

TheGuyWhoCodes 1y ago

What would have been a proportional response? Is it a numbers game? lets do 2x? 5x? 10x? In the gilad shalit deal Palestinians established the proportion of 1 Israeli to 1027 Palestinians. So on Oct 7 - 1,195 were murdered, by your standards Israel should have killed 1,227,265 Palestinians.

breadwinner 1y ago
First of all, the proportional response should be delivered directly to the source: Iran. There are lots of bad guys in Gaza, but there are lots of innocent people too. Indiscriminately killing everyone is not the solution.
- settrans 1y ago
  A) It's hard to argue that the war in Gaza was indiscriminate when the IDF achieved the highest combatant-to-civilian casualty ratio in the history of urban combat, despite Hamas hiding in tunnels underneath population centers. B) When soldiers flood across your border from a neighboring polity by the thousands, it would be an abdication of sovereignty not to defend against that immediate threat, regardless of the enemy's funding sources.
  - breadwinner 1y ago
    > highest combatant-to-civilian casualty ratio Very hard to believe.
    - settrans 1y ago
      Let's ask the world's leading expert in urban warfare, then: https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286 https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urb... https://www.linkedin.com/posts/johnwspencer2018_israel-has-done-more-to-prevent-civilian-activity-7192388569791930368-8RRL https://www.linkedin.com/posts/johnwspencer2018_israel-has-d... Note the falsification of Hamas casualty figures: https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-quietly-drops-thousands-deaths-122557133.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/hamas-quietly-drops-thousands-dea... https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hamas-manipulates-gaza-fatality-numbers-examining-male-undercount-and-other https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/how-hama...