6 ms·

Habeas corpus - still in effect unless you're already in El Salvador.

by outer_web 1y ago

adamc 1y ago
Although the president was caught on mic musing about deporting American citizens.
- throw__away7391 1y ago
  Not caught, he held a press conference and announced that he was going to try to do it.
  - throw__away7391 1y ago
    Actually I stand corrected--he was ALSO caught on tape with a much more chilling version of this statement.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > Although the president was caught on mic musing about deporting American citizens The canaries in our coal mine are permanent residents. Anything that can legally be done to a permanent resident can basically be done to a "bad" citizen. Trump is trying to run roughshod over permanent residents' habeus corpus rights. Courts are currently pushing back; I expect he will defy them. That, for me, will be the line at which I'll start helping with civil disruption.
  - goatlover 1y ago
    "Bad" citizen can end up meaning anything Trump doesn't like, such as criticism. Even the most conservative person should be worried about this.
    - outer_web 1y ago
      Especially the most conservative person.
- brendoelfrendo 1y ago
  He didn't get caught doing anything; he said it, openly, during an interview: https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrx6b2gxy2f https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrx6b2gxy2f
  - morkalork 1y ago
    Yeah, this is not going to end well for all y'all: https://bsky.app/profile/pbump.com/post/3lmryeyuj6s2v https://bsky.app/profile/pbump.com/post/3lmryeyuj6s2v
areoform 1y ago
It's not. The rubicon has already been crossed. If you asked some of the framers of the US constitution - beyond all other factors, unelected powers etc - what was the one defining trait of the government structure they wished to avoid; they'd have replied with arbitrary imprisonment and the suspension of due process. Please don't take my word for it, hear it from the Prosecutor's Prosecutor. The SCOTUS justice, former AG and former USSG who led the American prosecution against the Nazis at Nuremberg, Robert H. Jackson, No society is free where government makes one person's liberty depend upon the arbitrary will of another. Dictatorships have done this since time immemorial. They do now. Russian laws of 1934 authorized the People's Commissariat to imprison, banish and exile Russian citizens as well as "foreign subjects who are socially dangerous."' Hitler's secret police were given like powers. German courts were forbidden to make any inquiry whatever as to the information on which the police acted. Our Bill of Rights was written to prevent such oppressive practices. Under it this Nation has fostered and protected individual freedom. The Founders abhorred arbitrary one-man imprisonments. Their belief was--our constitutional principles are-that no person of any faith, rich or poor, high or low, native or foreigner, white or colored, can have his life, liberty or property taken "without due process of law." This means to me that neither the federal police nor federal prosecutors nor any other governmental official, whatever his title, can put or keep people in prison without accountability to courts of justice. It means that individual liberty is too highly prized in this country to allow executive officials to imprison and hold people on the basis of information kept secret from courts. It means that Mezei should not be deprived of his liberty indefinitely except as the result of a fair open court hearing in which evidence is appraised by the court, not by the prosecutor There is a reason why citizenship was not a requirement for receiving due process under the law. Citizenships are bestowed by the government. They can be taken away by the government. The framers held certain rights to be unalienable from human beings - something that no government can take away, and that was the right to not be unjustly detained for your beliefs, your behavior, your dress, your religion or composure. Suspending due process for anyone is fundamentally un-American. But we have crossed that threshold. What comes next is fairly inevitable - if the process isn't stopped now.
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  The more fundamental corollary is that the US government does not grant any rights. We have them by default and cede limited power for the benefit of an orderly society. Within such a framework, it should be impossible to disenfranchise people by denying them due process.
chomp 1y ago
So you acknowledge that it’s a race for the government to get permanent residents on flights as fast as they can to El Salvador before a petition is able to be filed?
- outer_web 1y ago
  Uh yeah, why wouldn't I? I mean I don't know that it's their policy but it sure looks that way.
ziddoap 1y ago
Just say "oops, sorry, that was a mistake but we can't get that person back" every time you want to disappear someone, and somehow you'll have people claiming that habeas corpus is still alive and well while people get disappeared.
- brendoelfrendo 1y ago
  Unless you're Stephen Miller, who insists that no mistake was made: https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrobxubic23 https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrobxubic23 And, more recently, Bukele and Trump insisted that they would not return a "terrorist" to the United States: https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrwrrkbnf2e https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrwrrkbnf2e It's clear that the administration does not consider collateral damage a bug, but a feature; it confirms that as long as they insist that they will not do anything, then nothing will be done.
  - ziddoap 1y ago
    Well one thing is for sure: it's not a coincidence that after they determined that it was impossible to get him back, they've changed the narrative to "no mistake was made" (and begun throwing around the magic word "terrorist" which justifies all sorts of things).
    - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
      > after they determined that it was impossible to get him back This phrasing buys into the Trump admin's narrative. They did not determine that it was impossible to get him back. They have chosen to not pursue it. They refuse to define the agreement between the US and El Salvador sufficiently for anyone to know what is or is not possible through that path. They also seem to refuse to use political or financial influence to go beyond whatever that agreement may define.
malfist 1y ago
If they can decide someone is a migrant and deport them without due process and no recourse, they can decide anyone is a migrant and deport them without due process. If a class of people don't have habeas corpus, no one does.
almostgotcaught 1y ago
the timeline of the first plane clearly shows that that is not the case (plane departed after the judge's stay). it would be helpful if people didn't cavalierly pronounce these kinds of things.
chairmansteve 1y ago
It's starting to like authoritarian is the wrong word. Totalitarian? not yet, but....
jcranmer 1y ago
Habeas corpus doesn't seem to be working for Rümeysa Öztürk right now.

Habeas corpus - still in effect unless you're already in El Salvador.

adamc 1y ago

Although the president was caught on mic musing about deporting American citizens.

throw__away7391 1y ago
Not caught, he held a press conference and announced that he was going to try to do it.
- throw__away7391 1y ago
  Actually I stand corrected--he was ALSO caught on tape with a much more chilling version of this statement.
JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Although the president was caught on mic musing about deporting American citizens The canaries in our coal mine are permanent residents. Anything that can legally be done to a permanent resident can basically be done to a "bad" citizen. Trump is trying to run roughshod over permanent residents' habeus corpus rights. Courts are currently pushing back; I expect he will defy them. That, for me, will be the line at which I'll start helping with civil disruption.
- goatlover 1y ago
  "Bad" citizen can end up meaning anything Trump doesn't like, such as criticism. Even the most conservative person should be worried about this.
  - outer_web 1y ago
    Especially the most conservative person.
brendoelfrendo 1y ago
He didn't get caught doing anything; he said it, openly, during an interview: https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrx6b2gxy2f https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrx6b2gxy2f
- morkalork 1y ago
  Yeah, this is not going to end well for all y'all: https://bsky.app/profile/pbump.com/post/3lmryeyuj6s2v https://bsky.app/profile/pbump.com/post/3lmryeyuj6s2v

areoform 1y ago

It's not. The rubicon has already been crossed. If you asked some of the framers of the US constitution - beyond all other factors, unelected powers etc - what was the one defining trait of the government structure they wished to avoid; they'd have replied with arbitrary imprisonment and the suspension of due process. Please don't take my word for it, hear it from the Prosecutor's Prosecutor. The SCOTUS justice, former AG and former USSG who led the American prosecution against the Nazis at Nuremberg, Robert H. Jackson, No society is free where government makes one person's liberty depend upon the arbitrary will of another. Dictatorships have done this since time immemorial. They do now. Russian laws of 1934 authorized the People's Commissariat to imprison, banish and exile Russian citizens as well as "foreign subjects who are socially dangerous."' Hitler's secret police were given like powers. German courts were forbidden to make any inquiry whatever as to the information on which the police acted. Our Bill of Rights was written to prevent such oppressive practices. Under it this Nation has fostered and protected individual freedom. The Founders abhorred arbitrary one-man imprisonments. Their belief was--our constitutional principles are-that no person of any faith, rich or poor, high or low, native or foreigner, white or colored, can have his life, liberty or property taken "without due process of law." This means to me that neither the federal police nor federal prosecutors nor any other governmental official, whatever his title, can put or keep people in prison without accountability to courts of justice. It means that individual liberty is too highly prized in this country to allow executive officials to imprison and hold people on the basis of information kept secret from courts. It means that Mezei should not be deprived of his liberty indefinitely except as the result of a fair open court hearing in which evidence is appraised by the court, not by the prosecutor There is a reason why citizenship was not a requirement for receiving due process under the law. Citizenships are bestowed by the government. They can be taken away by the government. The framers held certain rights to be unalienable from human beings - something that no government can take away, and that was the right to not be unjustly detained for your beliefs, your behavior, your dress, your religion or composure. Suspending due process for anyone is fundamentally un-American. But we have crossed that threshold. What comes next is fairly inevitable - if the process isn't stopped now.

kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
The more fundamental corollary is that the US government does not grant any rights. We have them by default and cede limited power for the benefit of an orderly society. Within such a framework, it should be impossible to disenfranchise people by denying them due process.

chomp 1y ago

So you acknowledge that it’s a race for the government to get permanent residents on flights as fast as they can to El Salvador before a petition is able to be filed?

outer_web 1y ago
Uh yeah, why wouldn't I? I mean I don't know that it's their policy but it sure looks that way.

ziddoap 1y ago

Just say "oops, sorry, that was a mistake but we can't get that person back" every time you want to disappear someone, and somehow you'll have people claiming that habeas corpus is still alive and well while people get disappeared.

brendoelfrendo 1y ago
Unless you're Stephen Miller, who insists that no mistake was made: https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrobxubic23 https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrobxubic23 And, more recently, Bukele and Trump insisted that they would not return a "terrorist" to the United States: https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrwrrkbnf2e https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lmrwrrkbnf2e It's clear that the administration does not consider collateral damage a bug, but a feature; it confirms that as long as they insist that they will not do anything, then nothing will be done.
- ziddoap 1y ago
  Well one thing is for sure: it's not a coincidence that after they determined that it was impossible to get him back, they've changed the narrative to "no mistake was made" (and begun throwing around the magic word "terrorist" which justifies all sorts of things).
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 1y ago
    > after they determined that it was impossible to get him back This phrasing buys into the Trump admin's narrative. They did not determine that it was impossible to get him back. They have chosen to not pursue it. They refuse to define the agreement between the US and El Salvador sufficiently for anyone to know what is or is not possible through that path. They also seem to refuse to use political or financial influence to go beyond whatever that agreement may define.

malfist 1y ago

If they can decide someone is a migrant and deport them without due process and no recourse, they can decide anyone is a migrant and deport them without due process. If a class of people don't have habeas corpus, no one does.

almostgotcaught 1y ago

the timeline of the first plane clearly shows that that is not the case (plane departed after the judge's stay). it would be helpful if people didn't cavalierly pronounce these kinds of things.

chairmansteve 1y ago

It's starting to like authoritarian is the wrong word. Totalitarian? not yet, but....

jcranmer 1y ago

Habeas corpus doesn't seem to be working for Rümeysa Öztürk right now.