4 ms·

This is an even worse intentionally created jurisdictional black hole than Guantanamo Bay. Abduct someone. Move them faster than their family, friends, and leg

This is an even worse intentionally created jurisdictional black hole than Guantanamo Bay. Abduct someone. Move them faster than their family, friends, and legal counsel can possibly follow. Get them on a plane to El Salvador. Put them in the CECOT hole. And then say "Aw geez, they're in Salvadorian jurisdiction now, nothing we can do." Yes, Abrego Garcia is a Salvadorian citizen. He also had been explicitly granted protected status to remain in the US. Nothing about this process prevents its application against US citizens. The detainee is pushed through a one-way valve faster than due process can be applied. If we do not protect the rule of law for immigrants who have been granted the right to stay here, we will also lose the rule of law for citizens.

readthenotes1 2y ago
And don't forget about "extreme renditions" when people just disappeared
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
This has been abused in the past and no one cared. Held in illegal prison conditions in the US? Take it to court, they just move you and you no longer have jurisdiction and the original illegal prison situation is never changed.
- maujun 2y ago
  I am curious about researching these past cases, but am a bit busy. Do you have any links?
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    I no longer have access to Lexus but try searching using 'moot transfer loss/lack of standing/jurisdiction correctional facility'. US Prisons have sections of facilities so bad for potential mental damage inmates can only remain in them for 3 months max but nothing is done to enforce that limit. If inmates file and start to have success they do finally get moved but they then lose standing regarding the conditions (while other inmates are then put in the freed up unfit cell). The feds move jurisdiction strategically, not so much they lose 'good faith' from the courts but more than is acceptable when they are using it specifically to undermine access to the courts/civil rights, prevent rulings on cells/wings ruled unfit for more than short term, etc. And when transfered you get diesel therapy. Every new prison situation presents threat to life risks, so being introduced to potentially a dozen new situations (you get placed in a new prison situation each nights stopover) during transit is something US inmates try to minimize (unfortunately timed transfers (oops, BOP mistake, sorry, we didn't mean for you to miss meals, just a timing mistake) causing missing breakfast/dinner so you often get just a single bologna sandwiches/orange in a day, plus the whole pissing yourself, inability to wipe yourself because you are shackled, and you aren't getting unshackled to use the toilet on your 12 hour ride, etc, etc google Diesel Therapy). https://documentedny.com/2025/04/08/diesel-therapy-ice-deportation-detention-transfer-louisiana-trump/ https://documentedny.com/2025/04/08/diesel-therapy-ice-depor... https://www.vice.com/sv/article/diesel-v11n2/ https://www.vice.com/sv/article/diesel-v11n2/
    - maujun 2y ago
      I see, so the general idea is that there are certain people in the federal govt that really have a mission, and the mission opposes these inmates. To the point that they are willing to collaborate across states to rotate them around. Confidence and morality are the underlying feelings across this part of the govt then, I am guessing. As a processed, your only solution now is to hope you get placed in the right moral category. That is a risk the processor is confident enough to take. Thank you for the links.
      - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
        I think it's more that they are just people doing jobs, and what we see as sacred safety nets/constitutional protections they over time just see as limits to doing their job so they work around them. Sadly it's not super nefarious, just human nature. I mean these lawyers upset now knew it was being done previously, but again, only so much they can do in their job and they let it slide too. They were also part of the slippery slope. Again because ultimately they too are just doing a job. Human systems that defer to people (in the court given 'good faith') will get abused up to and just as far past the line as they can get away with. And once normalized the lines move further back. The system of government our Constitution requires is rigid, expensive, and requires constant vigilance. We have chosen to go the window dressing route for a long time (just like Congress has chosen the easiest path) and that's something coming back on us now.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Move them faster than their family, friends, and legal counsel can possibly follow. Get them on a plane to El Salvador The question is whether these folks would be better off if the abductors were obstructed. They’re no longer operating under the colour of law. Disabling vehicles, possible officers, or otherwise creating chaos that makes moving victims around starts to make sense. Because if the other side isn’t playing by the rules, it really doesn’t make sense for you to.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
  That's the unfortunate powder keg we're sitting on. Right now everyone's still generally keeping up appearances that the rules matter. It's getting pretty thin in places. The dance the Trump admin is doing with the courts over Abrego Garcia serves multiple purposes. It gives a veneer of compliance - DoJ lawyers are showing up to hearings, they are filing briefings, they are participating in the process. It would be extremely fair to say they're not participating in good faith, the strategy clearly intends to delay and deflect any meaningful implementation of the court's order to bring Abrego Garcia back to the US. But they are participating. This appearance keeps a lot of folks on the fence. They want the big moment where it's super obvious that it's time to act. It doesn't work like that. This is how fascists gnaw away at the constructs that enable free societies. https://archive.is/g6ElI https://archive.is/g6ElI > Invoking Article 1 of the Weimar constitution, which stated that the government was an expression of the will of the people, Hitler informed the court that once he had achieved power through legal means, he intended to mold the government as he saw fit. It was an astonishingly brazen statement. > “So, through constitutional means?” the presiding judge asked. > “Jawohl!” Hitler replied.
bambax 2y ago
IANAL but the Bill of Rights (first ten amendments) doesn't mention "citizens", only "persons"; the US constitution should in theory protect any human being, wherever they are and whatever country they're from, from attacks by the US government.
- sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
  Definitely. But a lot of people are happy to look at what's happening with Abrego Garcia and say "it can't happen to me, I'm a US citizen." Those people need to be actively reminded that once we discard due process and rule of law, your status does not matter. If the administration chooses to target you, you'll be on the other side of the valve before anyone can meaningfully intervene on your behalf to assert your rights. There's a phrase "you can beat the time, but you can't beat the ride," meaning you can't do much about it if the police want to put you in jail for the night/weekend. They're going to subdue you, they're going to handcuff you, and they're going to book you. The validity of the charges or chance of successful prosecution does not matter, you're going to jail. You might bond out or get released as soon as you see a magistrate judge, but in the meantime you're going to jail. If the "ride" extends all the way to a facility that is beyond the jurisdiction of US courts, then the ride and the time are one and the same. The executive is not only the enforcer but also the judge and jury. It is absolutely broken from a constitutional perspective.
- soraminazuki 2y ago
  Even if you ignore the legal side of things, it's crazy to me to see some argue that founding principles don't apply to non-citizens. "The government shall not abduct and send people to concentration camps, as long as they're American citizens" sounds completely bonkers and immoral.

readthenotes1 2y ago

And don't forget about "extreme renditions" when people just disappeared

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

This has been abused in the past and no one cared. Held in illegal prison conditions in the US? Take it to court, they just move you and you no longer have jurisdiction and the original illegal prison situation is never changed.

maujun 2y ago
I am curious about researching these past cases, but am a bit busy. Do you have any links?
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  I no longer have access to Lexus but try searching using 'moot transfer loss/lack of standing/jurisdiction correctional facility'. US Prisons have sections of facilities so bad for potential mental damage inmates can only remain in them for 3 months max but nothing is done to enforce that limit. If inmates file and start to have success they do finally get moved but they then lose standing regarding the conditions (while other inmates are then put in the freed up unfit cell). The feds move jurisdiction strategically, not so much they lose 'good faith' from the courts but more than is acceptable when they are using it specifically to undermine access to the courts/civil rights, prevent rulings on cells/wings ruled unfit for more than short term, etc. And when transfered you get diesel therapy. Every new prison situation presents threat to life risks, so being introduced to potentially a dozen new situations (you get placed in a new prison situation each nights stopover) during transit is something US inmates try to minimize (unfortunately timed transfers (oops, BOP mistake, sorry, we didn't mean for you to miss meals, just a timing mistake) causing missing breakfast/dinner so you often get just a single bologna sandwiches/orange in a day, plus the whole pissing yourself, inability to wipe yourself because you are shackled, and you aren't getting unshackled to use the toilet on your 12 hour ride, etc, etc google Diesel Therapy). https://documentedny.com/2025/04/08/diesel-therapy-ice-deportation-detention-transfer-louisiana-trump/ https://documentedny.com/2025/04/08/diesel-therapy-ice-depor... https://www.vice.com/sv/article/diesel-v11n2/ https://www.vice.com/sv/article/diesel-v11n2/
  - maujun 2y ago
    I see, so the general idea is that there are certain people in the federal govt that really have a mission, and the mission opposes these inmates. To the point that they are willing to collaborate across states to rotate them around. Confidence and morality are the underlying feelings across this part of the govt then, I am guessing. As a processed, your only solution now is to hope you get placed in the right moral category. That is a risk the processor is confident enough to take. Thank you for the links.
    - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
      I think it's more that they are just people doing jobs, and what we see as sacred safety nets/constitutional protections they over time just see as limits to doing their job so they work around them. Sadly it's not super nefarious, just human nature. I mean these lawyers upset now knew it was being done previously, but again, only so much they can do in their job and they let it slide too. They were also part of the slippery slope. Again because ultimately they too are just doing a job. Human systems that defer to people (in the court given 'good faith') will get abused up to and just as far past the line as they can get away with. And once normalized the lines move further back. The system of government our Constitution requires is rigid, expensive, and requires constant vigilance. We have chosen to go the window dressing route for a long time (just like Congress has chosen the easiest path) and that's something coming back on us now.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Move them faster than their family, friends, and legal counsel can possibly follow. Get them on a plane to El Salvador The question is whether these folks would be better off if the abductors were obstructed. They’re no longer operating under the colour of law. Disabling vehicles, possible officers, or otherwise creating chaos that makes moving victims around starts to make sense. Because if the other side isn’t playing by the rules, it really doesn’t make sense for you to.

sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
That's the unfortunate powder keg we're sitting on. Right now everyone's still generally keeping up appearances that the rules matter. It's getting pretty thin in places. The dance the Trump admin is doing with the courts over Abrego Garcia serves multiple purposes. It gives a veneer of compliance - DoJ lawyers are showing up to hearings, they are filing briefings, they are participating in the process. It would be extremely fair to say they're not participating in good faith, the strategy clearly intends to delay and deflect any meaningful implementation of the court's order to bring Abrego Garcia back to the US. But they are participating. This appearance keeps a lot of folks on the fence. They want the big moment where it's super obvious that it's time to act. It doesn't work like that. This is how fascists gnaw away at the constructs that enable free societies. https://archive.is/g6ElI https://archive.is/g6ElI > Invoking Article 1 of the Weimar constitution, which stated that the government was an expression of the will of the people, Hitler informed the court that once he had achieved power through legal means, he intended to mold the government as he saw fit. It was an astonishingly brazen statement. > “So, through constitutional means?” the presiding judge asked. > “Jawohl!” Hitler replied.

bambax 2y ago

IANAL but the Bill of Rights (first ten amendments) doesn't mention "citizens", only "persons"; the US constitution should in theory protect any human being, wherever they are and whatever country they're from, from attacks by the US government.

sjsdaiuasgdia 2y ago
Definitely. But a lot of people are happy to look at what's happening with Abrego Garcia and say "it can't happen to me, I'm a US citizen." Those people need to be actively reminded that once we discard due process and rule of law, your status does not matter. If the administration chooses to target you, you'll be on the other side of the valve before anyone can meaningfully intervene on your behalf to assert your rights. There's a phrase "you can beat the time, but you can't beat the ride," meaning you can't do much about it if the police want to put you in jail for the night/weekend. They're going to subdue you, they're going to handcuff you, and they're going to book you. The validity of the charges or chance of successful prosecution does not matter, you're going to jail. You might bond out or get released as soon as you see a magistrate judge, but in the meantime you're going to jail. If the "ride" extends all the way to a facility that is beyond the jurisdiction of US courts, then the ride and the time are one and the same. The executive is not only the enforcer but also the judge and jury. It is absolutely broken from a constitutional perspective.
soraminazuki 2y ago
Even if you ignore the legal side of things, it's crazy to me to see some argue that founding principles don't apply to non-citizens. "The government shall not abduct and send people to concentration camps, as long as they're American citizens" sounds completely bonkers and immoral.