4 ms·

This really is the end of everything. Troops deployed domestically. Citizens blackbagged and sent to gulags for the rest of their lives with no process. There i

This really is the end of everything. Troops deployed domestically. Citizens blackbagged and sent to gulags for the rest of their lives with no process. There is no more law one this position is reached.

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OutOfHere 2y ago
In fairness, the person was not a US citizen. To my knowledge, he was an El Salvador citizen. I am not defending the action. The beginning of the end will be if this starts happening to US citizens, although that hasn't happened.
- UncleMeat 2y ago
  That is not fairness. If "oopsy-doopsy, it was a mistake" has no remedy then there is no remedy when it is a citizen who gets sent to a gulag.
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      I'm really tired of this song and dance at this point of being alarmist for trusting every little thing Trump says he'll do, no matter how crazy. This is the exact opposite of the Boy who Cried Wolf. How many sheep need to be eaten before you trust the shepard? Or you know, the wolf who keeps saying "I'm going to eat these sheep"?
      - OutOfHere 2y ago
        It is the act of not jumping to conclusions that makes us better than him. I understand completely that if he could get away with it, he would detain citizens, but I am not convinced yet that he can. If we jump the gun, we are no better than him.
        deleted 2y ago
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        johnnyanmac 2y ago
        How is it "jumping to conclusions" to take what the president of thr United States says at face value? >I understand completely that if he could get away with it, he would detain citizens, but I am not convinced yet that he can. He already did. Thars the issue. Visa holders are already citizens. Do I need to to show you thr footage of a college woman being kidnapped off the street by un-badged men?
        OutOfHere 2y ago
        No, the word citizen applies very strictly to US Citizen which is a strict legal designatation that visa holders do not possess.
        HaZeust 2y ago
        “US citizen” and implying some higher necessity of honoring his rights is a false dichotomy, Under the U.S. Constitution (especially the 5th and 14th Amendments), all “persons” (not just citizens) are entitled to due process protections. Further, even outside of his applicability to INA, he was explicitly granted a Withholding of Removal, and was specifically barred from any removal with the end destination being El Salvador. The Supreme Court also unanimously ruled his deportation as illegal. This is settled law through ANY and EVERY avenue you look at it. There are no straws to grasp.
    - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
      Hello, allow me to weigh into your allegedly subjective discussion with an objective agreement to what the other poster said: > If "oopsy-doopsy, it was a mistake" has no remedy then there is no remedy when it is a citizen who gets sent to a gulag. What's more, now that the executive branch is disobeying direct orders from the judicial branch, what recourse do you think you'd have if you got on the wrong executive branch official's bad side?
      - OutOfHere 2y ago
        In this particular case, I believe the judicial branch is ignoring an agreement with a foreign country to never send anyone back. I truly believe the executive branch to be powerless at this point to undo their mistake. Neither branch holds power over a foreign country. Just admitting the mistake was a positive step, which means they do care at least a little bit to not repeat it. Imagine for a moment that the judicial branch orders the executive branch to get Iran to release some American prisoners. The ruling to return the El Salvadorian is well-intentioned but even more absurd, considering the person is a citizen of El Salvador.
        UncleMeat 2y ago
        > Just admitting the mistake was a positive step, which means they do care at least a little bit to not repeat it. Why is this an appropriate conclusion? Stephen Miller went on TV to say that this man is a terrorist and is in the right place, despite sworn statements from the solicitor general that this was a mistake. I see absolutely no reason to believe that the Trump administration sees any reason to prevent further errors. > Imagine for a moment that the judicial branch orders the executive branch to get Iran to release some American prisoners. Hey look, a completely different situation. Here the US sent this person to El Salvador and is paying the Salvadoran government to house people we send there. Not even remotely comparable to the Iranian government capturing somebody.
        ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        Thank you for responding. I realize you have some beliefs and opinions about things, legal and otherwise. I do, too! Indeed, most people have beliefs and opinions about things. The role of the judicial branch, and of each judge, is to listen to all those beliefs and opinions as appropriate, and decide which one is correct, and to make orders as necessary in furtherance of that aim. That has happened, and the administration then disobeyed the orders and asserted that the judges' judgements were invalid (an irrelevant personal judgement, because they are not the judge). So, that's where we're at now. With that in mind, please address the posts to which you replied, specifically, the below 2 points: > If "oopsy-doopsy, it was a mistake" has no remedy then there is no remedy when it is a citizen who gets sent to a gulag. > What's more, now that the executive branch is disobeying direct orders from the judicial branch, what recourse do you think you'd have if you got on the wrong executive branch official's bad side? You're being specifically asked to talk through your options and choices in such scenarios. What would they be? We'll take turns: You play the part of the victim; I'll play the part of the administration; we'll game it out. POV: You're walking down the street and a group of 7 or 8 plainclothes individuals wearing masks surround you, restrain you, and force you into an unmarked vehicle. Maybe one of them says they're a cop, but otherwise they refuse to say anything while they transport you to a foreign gulag. You are not permitted a lawyer, you are not permitted a phone call, and nobody, no family, no lawyers, no judges, not even your local police department, is notified what is happening to you. PERHAPS (it wouldn't change the outcome, but whatever) unbeknownst to you or them, this is a case of mistaken identity. Ready for your turn? Go.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  > The beginning of the end will be if this starts happening to US citizens, although that hasn't happened. Do you think that's the final straw? What if the US did it to a citizen? Would you emigrate or resist? Genuinely curious; I feel like things are bad but salvageable.
  - OutOfHere 2y ago
    If this starts happening to too many random citizens, I will see the writing on the wall. I will begin immediately to dissolve all my assets, send them to crypto and or foreign bank accounts, and move out of the country. Their war is not my war. It will take me a whole year, but I will do it. I don't know where I will go.
    - harambae 2y ago
      > dissolve all my assets, send them to crypto and or foreign bank accounts, and move out of the country Is there some type of polymarket where I can place a bet that you don’t do this and neither does anyone else and the US housing market goes up another 4% next year? I’ve just been hearing this same type of thing since the war in Iraq began (albeit with less cryptocurrency back then) and it’s a little exhausting at this point.
      - OutOfHere 2y ago
        It depends entirely on whether Trump uses his private armed force (ICE) to detain citizens or not. If you can't handle what-if scenarios, you will eventually run into one that does transpire. Yes, we would like to bet that he won't, but with him we never know.

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OutOfHere 2y ago

In fairness, the person was not a US citizen. To my knowledge, he was an El Salvador citizen. I am not defending the action. The beginning of the end will be if this starts happening to US citizens, although that hasn't happened.

UncleMeat 2y ago
That is not fairness. If "oopsy-doopsy, it was a mistake" has no remedy then there is no remedy when it is a citizen who gets sent to a gulag.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    I'm really tired of this song and dance at this point of being alarmist for trusting every little thing Trump says he'll do, no matter how crazy. This is the exact opposite of the Boy who Cried Wolf. How many sheep need to be eaten before you trust the shepard? Or you know, the wolf who keeps saying "I'm going to eat these sheep"?
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      It is the act of not jumping to conclusions that makes us better than him. I understand completely that if he could get away with it, he would detain citizens, but I am not convinced yet that he can. If we jump the gun, we are no better than him.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        How is it "jumping to conclusions" to take what the president of thr United States says at face value? >I understand completely that if he could get away with it, he would detain citizens, but I am not convinced yet that he can. He already did. Thars the issue. Visa holders are already citizens. Do I need to to show you thr footage of a college woman being kidnapped off the street by un-badged men?
        OutOfHere 2y ago
        No, the word citizen applies very strictly to US Citizen which is a strict legal designatation that visa holders do not possess.
        HaZeust 2y ago
        “US citizen” and implying some higher necessity of honoring his rights is a false dichotomy, Under the U.S. Constitution (especially the 5th and 14th Amendments), all “persons” (not just citizens) are entitled to due process protections. Further, even outside of his applicability to INA, he was explicitly granted a Withholding of Removal, and was specifically barred from any removal with the end destination being El Salvador. The Supreme Court also unanimously ruled his deportation as illegal. This is settled law through ANY and EVERY avenue you look at it. There are no straws to grasp.
  - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
    Hello, allow me to weigh into your allegedly subjective discussion with an objective agreement to what the other poster said: > If "oopsy-doopsy, it was a mistake" has no remedy then there is no remedy when it is a citizen who gets sent to a gulag. What's more, now that the executive branch is disobeying direct orders from the judicial branch, what recourse do you think you'd have if you got on the wrong executive branch official's bad side?
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      In this particular case, I believe the judicial branch is ignoring an agreement with a foreign country to never send anyone back. I truly believe the executive branch to be powerless at this point to undo their mistake. Neither branch holds power over a foreign country. Just admitting the mistake was a positive step, which means they do care at least a little bit to not repeat it. Imagine for a moment that the judicial branch orders the executive branch to get Iran to release some American prisoners. The ruling to return the El Salvadorian is well-intentioned but even more absurd, considering the person is a citizen of El Salvador.
      - UncleMeat 2y ago
        > Just admitting the mistake was a positive step, which means they do care at least a little bit to not repeat it. Why is this an appropriate conclusion? Stephen Miller went on TV to say that this man is a terrorist and is in the right place, despite sworn statements from the solicitor general that this was a mistake. I see absolutely no reason to believe that the Trump administration sees any reason to prevent further errors. > Imagine for a moment that the judicial branch orders the executive branch to get Iran to release some American prisoners. Hey look, a completely different situation. Here the US sent this person to El Salvador and is paying the Salvadoran government to house people we send there. Not even remotely comparable to the Iranian government capturing somebody.
      - ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
        Thank you for responding. I realize you have some beliefs and opinions about things, legal and otherwise. I do, too! Indeed, most people have beliefs and opinions about things. The role of the judicial branch, and of each judge, is to listen to all those beliefs and opinions as appropriate, and decide which one is correct, and to make orders as necessary in furtherance of that aim. That has happened, and the administration then disobeyed the orders and asserted that the judges' judgements were invalid (an irrelevant personal judgement, because they are not the judge). So, that's where we're at now. With that in mind, please address the posts to which you replied, specifically, the below 2 points: > If "oopsy-doopsy, it was a mistake" has no remedy then there is no remedy when it is a citizen who gets sent to a gulag. > What's more, now that the executive branch is disobeying direct orders from the judicial branch, what recourse do you think you'd have if you got on the wrong executive branch official's bad side? You're being specifically asked to talk through your options and choices in such scenarios. What would they be? We'll take turns: You play the part of the victim; I'll play the part of the administration; we'll game it out. POV: You're walking down the street and a group of 7 or 8 plainclothes individuals wearing masks surround you, restrain you, and force you into an unmarked vehicle. Maybe one of them says they're a cop, but otherwise they refuse to say anything while they transport you to a foreign gulag. You are not permitted a lawyer, you are not permitted a phone call, and nobody, no family, no lawyers, no judges, not even your local police department, is notified what is happening to you. PERHAPS (it wouldn't change the outcome, but whatever) unbeknownst to you or them, this is a case of mistaken identity. Ready for your turn? Go.
shepherdjerred 2y ago
> The beginning of the end will be if this starts happening to US citizens, although that hasn't happened. Do you think that's the final straw? What if the US did it to a citizen? Would you emigrate or resist? Genuinely curious; I feel like things are bad but salvageable.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  If this starts happening to too many random citizens, I will see the writing on the wall. I will begin immediately to dissolve all my assets, send them to crypto and or foreign bank accounts, and move out of the country. Their war is not my war. It will take me a whole year, but I will do it. I don't know where I will go.
  - harambae 2y ago
    > dissolve all my assets, send them to crypto and or foreign bank accounts, and move out of the country Is there some type of polymarket where I can place a bet that you don’t do this and neither does anyone else and the US housing market goes up another 4% next year? I’ve just been hearing this same type of thing since the war in Iraq began (albeit with less cryptocurrency back then) and it’s a little exhausting at this point.
    - OutOfHere 2y ago
      It depends entirely on whether Trump uses his private armed force (ICE) to detain citizens or not. If you can't handle what-if scenarios, you will eventually run into one that does transpire. Yes, we would like to bet that he won't, but with him we never know.