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Why isn't it "the same"? Was it somehow better when NSA under Clinton, Bush or Obama were wire tapping Germany and France? Here's why wiretapping allies is imp

Why isn't it "the same"? Was it somehow better when NSA under Clinton, Bush or Obama were wire tapping Germany and France? Here's why wiretapping allies is important: if the US agencies can wiretap you, then so can Russia, China, Israel, North Korea, etc. So if you notice your allies being sloppy with their InfoSec, you can also let them know about it before the enemies find out and exploit them. So it's your job to implement security that nobody else can tap. That's why citizens pay taxes to the defense sector, that's why you have intelligence and counter intelligence agencies, etc. they just need to do their fucking job instead of going after citizens who buy weed online or who call politicians dicks on Xitter.

throwaway290 2y ago
because EU and US are less and less "allies"
- FirmwareBurner 2y ago
  Can you explain why? Last time I checked we're still in NATO and my country stil hosts a US nuclear deterrent(against Russia). What part of that has changed? Temporary internal economic disputes (these happen all the time, especially between EU members) have little to do with military alliances against external threats.
  - throwaway290 2y ago
    No one expects NATO to exist for much longer. if your country is Denmark then your fellow NATO member recently threatened to invade you. The organization became a farce within a couple of months.
  - esafak 2y ago
    Trump sees it as a cost and says Europeans are not paying their fair share. He has been talking about it for ten years: https://www.factcheck.org/2016/05/whats-trumps-position-on-nato/ https://www.factcheck.org/2016/05/whats-trumps-position-on-n... I daresay his judgment is informed by his consideration of Russia as closer to an ally than a foe.
    - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
      >Trump sees it as a cost. Which is true since defense money doesn't rain from the sky. Taxpayers on both sides of the atlantic are footing the bill. >He always says Europeans are not paying their fair share. Which is true when you look at per member spending percentages. Mostly Poland and a couple of other members have been meeting their agreed spending targets, but the rest have been slacking. >He has been talking about it for ten years: From your article: "While Trump has gone so far as saying that, as president, he would consider pulling the U.S. out of NATO if it is not restructured, we’ve found no instance of him saying he wants to do so at this point. And the Clinton campaign hasn’t been able to point to an example of Trump saying that either. In fact, it was during the interview with the Post, which initially brought attention to Trump’s feelings about NATO, that Trump said that he doesn’t want the U.S. to leave the alliance."
      - throwaway290 2y ago
        It's not about the finances and being late on payment. The finances part is solved easily by politely saying "pay your part please or we gotta evict you". It's about members of supposed "alliance" threatening to roll tanks on each other. > While Trump has gone so far as saying that, as president, he would consider pulling the U.S. out of NATO if it is not restructured, we’ve found no instance of him saying he wants to do so at this point US won't because US needs NATO more than other countries. US is the only country to ever invoke article whatshernumber.
    - watwut 2y ago
      I would argue that this is not the core reason and just an excuse. If it was about paying "fair share" there would be no annexation threats, no economic attacks, none of the rest. And it would not required Trump lying about Ukraine war either.
    - rat87 2y ago
      Russia is a foe because it chooses to be a foe. It won't be an ally for any foreseeable future. Trump doesn't care about cost. And investing in your own military is not the same as paying America. The Baltic countries and Poland have spent a higher then recommended percentage of their gdp on the military and have done more to keep a positive relationship with America but Trump doesn't seem to care
  - exe34 2y ago
    Trump is already parroting the Russian disinformation/talking points on Ukraine. What makes you think he would use those nukes against Mother Russia?
  - watwut 2y ago
    Because USA is threatening annexation of NATO members and is allying itself with Russia. So, that is what changed.
creaturemachine 2y ago
Because that border officer demanding your phone so they can read your texts for anything critical of Trump is not spying.
drivingmenuts 2y ago
Seems to me that if your country is not spying on allies and enemies alike, someone is not doing their job properly. The US spies on the EU and its member countries, just like the EU and its member countries spy on the US as they can. That's what they're supposed to be doing. Every country is going to massage "the truth" when dealing with others, so it's good to know how much massaging is going on. The big difference now is that the US (my own damn country) is not nearly as trustworthy as it was (for some value of trustworthy), nor is it nearly as competently led as it was (for some value of competence), nor is it behaving in rational and predictable ways (as compared to before). So, maybe we all just understand that it's in everyone else's best interest to keep a close eye on conditions in the US, because it's not going to get better any time soon. And we all should probably also understand that the US is just going to see enemies wherever it looks and that's not going to improve any time soon, either.

throwaway290 2y ago

because EU and US are less and less "allies"

FirmwareBurner 2y ago
Can you explain why? Last time I checked we're still in NATO and my country stil hosts a US nuclear deterrent(against Russia). What part of that has changed? Temporary internal economic disputes (these happen all the time, especially between EU members) have little to do with military alliances against external threats.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  No one expects NATO to exist for much longer. if your country is Denmark then your fellow NATO member recently threatened to invade you. The organization became a farce within a couple of months.
- esafak 2y ago
  Trump sees it as a cost and says Europeans are not paying their fair share. He has been talking about it for ten years: https://www.factcheck.org/2016/05/whats-trumps-position-on-nato/ https://www.factcheck.org/2016/05/whats-trumps-position-on-n... I daresay his judgment is informed by his consideration of Russia as closer to an ally than a foe.
  - FirmwareBurner 2y ago
    >Trump sees it as a cost. Which is true since defense money doesn't rain from the sky. Taxpayers on both sides of the atlantic are footing the bill. >He always says Europeans are not paying their fair share. Which is true when you look at per member spending percentages. Mostly Poland and a couple of other members have been meeting their agreed spending targets, but the rest have been slacking. >He has been talking about it for ten years: From your article: "While Trump has gone so far as saying that, as president, he would consider pulling the U.S. out of NATO if it is not restructured, we’ve found no instance of him saying he wants to do so at this point. And the Clinton campaign hasn’t been able to point to an example of Trump saying that either. In fact, it was during the interview with the Post, which initially brought attention to Trump’s feelings about NATO, that Trump said that he doesn’t want the U.S. to leave the alliance."
    - throwaway290 2y ago
      It's not about the finances and being late on payment. The finances part is solved easily by politely saying "pay your part please or we gotta evict you". It's about members of supposed "alliance" threatening to roll tanks on each other. > While Trump has gone so far as saying that, as president, he would consider pulling the U.S. out of NATO if it is not restructured, we’ve found no instance of him saying he wants to do so at this point US won't because US needs NATO more than other countries. US is the only country to ever invoke article whatshernumber.
  - watwut 2y ago
    I would argue that this is not the core reason and just an excuse. If it was about paying "fair share" there would be no annexation threats, no economic attacks, none of the rest. And it would not required Trump lying about Ukraine war either.
  - rat87 2y ago
    Russia is a foe because it chooses to be a foe. It won't be an ally for any foreseeable future. Trump doesn't care about cost. And investing in your own military is not the same as paying America. The Baltic countries and Poland have spent a higher then recommended percentage of their gdp on the military and have done more to keep a positive relationship with America but Trump doesn't seem to care
- exe34 2y ago
  Trump is already parroting the Russian disinformation/talking points on Ukraine. What makes you think he would use those nukes against Mother Russia?
- watwut 2y ago
  Because USA is threatening annexation of NATO members and is allying itself with Russia. So, that is what changed.

creaturemachine 2y ago

Because that border officer demanding your phone so they can read your texts for anything critical of Trump is not spying.

drivingmenuts 2y ago

Seems to me that if your country is not spying on allies and enemies alike, someone is not doing their job properly. The US spies on the EU and its member countries, just like the EU and its member countries spy on the US as they can. That's what they're supposed to be doing. Every country is going to massage "the truth" when dealing with others, so it's good to know how much massaging is going on. The big difference now is that the US (my own damn country) is not nearly as trustworthy as it was (for some value of trustworthy), nor is it nearly as competently led as it was (for some value of competence), nor is it behaving in rational and predictable ways (as compared to before). So, maybe we all just understand that it's in everyone else's best interest to keep a close eye on conditions in the US, because it's not going to get better any time soon. And we all should probably also understand that the US is just going to see enemies wherever it looks and that's not going to improve any time soon, either.