4 ms·

There's a higher monthly salary in the US, sure. However, you're expected to work very long hours (60-80 hours per week) and get basically no time off In my cu

There's a higher monthly salary in the US, sure. However, you're expected to work very long hours (60-80 hours per week) and get basically no time off In my current position I'm hired for an expected 37 hours per week. This can be more if I'm asked to work overtime, but my weekly hours cannot exceed 45 hours per week on average in a 3 month window without additional compensation Additionally I have six weeks of paid time off every year plus public holidays If I calculate my hourly salary it's better than what I was paid by US companies That's not to mention the security of having a legally mandated termination period of minimum 3 months (in which you're, in most cases, not expected to work)

scarface_74 2y ago
I have never in 28 years across 10 jobs including one in BigTech been “expected” to work more than 40 hours a week. It’s a bunch of copium thinking that American tech workers are working 60-80 hour weeks. And I know it’s not the norm, but right now I have “unlimited PTO” and most people take at least 5 weeks a year. If the average American tech worker is making 2x - 4x the average EU worker, they should be able to save more than enough to have a three month cushion. And we are talking about Google. They have a very generous severance package. Even Amazon where I use to work gave me three months severance.
- mcv 2y ago
  This is not what we usually hear about employment in the US. The reason many Europeans think American tech workers are working 60-80 hours per week is not copium, but simply because that's what many Americans tell us.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 2y ago
    Why would they be complaining about working 40h a week? You will obviously hear more about bad experiences than the norm.
    - mcv 2y ago
      We hear enough about it that it gives the impression of being very common, even if it might not be the norm.
      - apwell23 2y ago
        its not common but i know nothing can convince you of that
        mcv 2y ago
        How can you know that? Please don't assume stuff about others just to make a rhetorical point. If you say it's not that common as it's often made out to be, why wouldn't I believe you? Though what would also help if you had an explanation for why we tend to hear these stories mostly from the US and not from other countries.
        isbvhodnvemrwvn 2y ago
        How much content you consume comes from the US vs other countries? The US has a full cultural supremacy in the west. That's why you speak english and read YC.
        mcv 2y ago
        The world is larger than just the US, though. Even at HN. Just look around you.
        apwell23 2y ago
        > Though what would also help if you had an explanation for why we tend to hear these stories mostly from the US because internet is dominated by 'stories mostly from US'
        mcv 2y ago
        I see plenty of stories from Europe, and they too complain about work, but never about having to work 60-80 hours. Even if it's rare in the US, it still seems more common than in Europe. Similarly, I hear stories about working 3 jobs in the US which I don't hear from Europe. I do hear people complain about managers, pay, or office politics in Europe.
  - nmeofthestate 2y ago
    My experience is limited - I work in the UK for a US company and haven't spoken to US developers from a wide variety of companies. However I've not heard any US developers talking about working such long hours. Closest thing I've heard is for devs to sometimes work over the core hours to build up time-in-lieu for extra vacation, over and above the paltry standard 2 week holiday allowance.
  - bigstrat2003 2y ago
    I will just add another +1 to say it's not common to work 60-80 hours per week in the US tech industry. It's not unheard of, and some companies (Amazon) are notorious for expecting that of their employees. But most of the time what you will see is that most people work 40ish hours (some weeks a bit more, some a bit less), and only a handful of colleagues with an unhealthy relationship to the job will work 50+ hours per week. Management doesn't generally expect people to do that, though of course bad managers do exist and can make your life miserable. The only time I've ever been expected to put in those kinds of long hours was in case of an emergency. Stuff like, a natural disaster hit the company's primary data center so they needed to be all hands on deck to get services restored. But it's definitely not common day to day, and even in case of emergencies the company generally gives you a little something (extra time off, a bonus, whatever) to compensate you for the long hard hours you had to work.
  - sgerenser 2y ago
    U.S. tech worker here. The only time I’ve ever worked 60-80 hour weeks was at a much smaller company, where for a month or two leading up to a trade show a whole bunch of work that had been put off was attempted to get crammed into the product. At my subsequent BigTech jobs I’ve never been asked/required to work more than 40 hours a week. I mean, nobody was tracking exact hours, but nobody was also pinging me at 8PM or on the weekend and expecting me to be working.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    fascinating. I thought the meme was that FAANG tech workers were all day and lazy and didn't have to work that hard and were grossly overpaid, but that's as much a stereotype as the next one.
- int_19h 2y ago
  "Unlimited PTO" is discretionary in practice, and there are studies showing that it translates to less PTO on average, which is exactly why companies do it.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    And I mentioned on average people take 20-25 days a year and managers are dinged if their reports don’t take at least 15 days a year. I don’t care what the “average” is. I plan on taking 30 days this year.
    - alternatex 2y ago
      Your last sentence reads a bit like "I don't care about statistics, I prefer my anecdote".
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        Okay. First link -16 days for unlimited PTO vs 14 days without https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/ive-been-an-hr-professional-for-25-years-and-i-absolutely-hate-unlimited-pto/91130552 https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/ive-been-an-hr-professiona...
        int_19h 2y ago
        I'm genuinely curious if you've actually read the article you linked to, given that the line literally above the numbers you quoted says, in large font and bold caps: "Employees don’t get more time off (and may actually get fewer days away from work)". Did it not make you wonder why? Now if you look at where those numbers come from, this article quotes another article from WSJ (https://archive.is/MVRur https://archive.is/MVRur) which is also titled "Why You Should Be Wary of the Unlimited Vacation Perk". Hmm... And the WSJ article, in turn, takes its number from this report: https://www.empower.com/the-currency/work/pursuit-of-pto-research https://www.empower.com/the-currency/work/pursuit-of-pto-res... Now when you look at the survey, the problem with comparing those numbers is that they are averages for all workers. That is, 14 days without PTO is the average across all companies, not just those that had adopted UPTO. And the 16 days with UPTO is, of course, only for those companies. So the numbers don't actually tell you anything about the effect of "unlimited" PTO adoption in a given company. Those companies where 14 days is the norm are generally not the ones that decide to switch to UPTO because, well, there's no actual benefit in it for them. Companies that do adopt it, like many Big Tech firms in the past few years, are also the ones that had much more generous paid PTO to begin with - at Microsoft, for example, as a senior engineer, I had four weeks of PTO before the switch. So, you need to look at comparisons before and after UPTO adoption for the same company to see the trend. Conveniently, that very article you linked to has some sources for that, e.g.: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220520-the-smoke-and-mirrors-of-unlimited-paid-time-off https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220520-the-smoke-and-... There are other negative aspects to it, too. For example, when you have guaranteed vacation PTO, it is wholly separate from other things like paid medical leave. But with UPTO, it's that much harder to argue for it to your manager if you have already taken medical leave that year.
apwell23 2y ago
never worked more than 40hr/week (including hellhole amazon). i get 28 days pto now and unlimited sick days. > If I calculate my hourly salary it's better than what I was paid by US companies prbly not.
cloverich 2y ago
I worked 80 hours a week in medical school, depending on the rotation. From that experience I can tell you, the majority of people that say they work 80 hours a week, don't even know what that looks like.
geodel 2y ago
This 60-80 hrs/week maybe a startup myth. Since Europe in general has far fewer startups than US people hear these wild numbers in Europe far less. For normal big tech worker, or enterprise workers 40 hrs is really the norm. Now many people specially in contracting, consulting can stretch hours for billing purpose or impressing upon clients thats a different matter.

scarface_74 2y ago

I have never in 28 years across 10 jobs including one in BigTech been “expected” to work more than 40 hours a week. It’s a bunch of copium thinking that American tech workers are working 60-80 hour weeks. And I know it’s not the norm, but right now I have “unlimited PTO” and most people take at least 5 weeks a year. If the average American tech worker is making 2x - 4x the average EU worker, they should be able to save more than enough to have a three month cushion. And we are talking about Google. They have a very generous severance package. Even Amazon where I use to work gave me three months severance.

mcv 2y ago
This is not what we usually hear about employment in the US. The reason many Europeans think American tech workers are working 60-80 hours per week is not copium, but simply because that's what many Americans tell us.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 2y ago
  Why would they be complaining about working 40h a week? You will obviously hear more about bad experiences than the norm.
  - mcv 2y ago
    We hear enough about it that it gives the impression of being very common, even if it might not be the norm.
    - apwell23 2y ago
      its not common but i know nothing can convince you of that
      - mcv 2y ago
        How can you know that? Please don't assume stuff about others just to make a rhetorical point. If you say it's not that common as it's often made out to be, why wouldn't I believe you? Though what would also help if you had an explanation for why we tend to hear these stories mostly from the US and not from other countries.
        isbvhodnvemrwvn 2y ago
        How much content you consume comes from the US vs other countries? The US has a full cultural supremacy in the west. That's why you speak english and read YC.
        mcv 2y ago
        The world is larger than just the US, though. Even at HN. Just look around you.
        apwell23 2y ago
        > Though what would also help if you had an explanation for why we tend to hear these stories mostly from the US because internet is dominated by 'stories mostly from US'
        mcv 2y ago
        I see plenty of stories from Europe, and they too complain about work, but never about having to work 60-80 hours. Even if it's rare in the US, it still seems more common than in Europe. Similarly, I hear stories about working 3 jobs in the US which I don't hear from Europe. I do hear people complain about managers, pay, or office politics in Europe.
- nmeofthestate 2y ago
  My experience is limited - I work in the UK for a US company and haven't spoken to US developers from a wide variety of companies. However I've not heard any US developers talking about working such long hours. Closest thing I've heard is for devs to sometimes work over the core hours to build up time-in-lieu for extra vacation, over and above the paltry standard 2 week holiday allowance.
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  I will just add another +1 to say it's not common to work 60-80 hours per week in the US tech industry. It's not unheard of, and some companies (Amazon) are notorious for expecting that of their employees. But most of the time what you will see is that most people work 40ish hours (some weeks a bit more, some a bit less), and only a handful of colleagues with an unhealthy relationship to the job will work 50+ hours per week. Management doesn't generally expect people to do that, though of course bad managers do exist and can make your life miserable. The only time I've ever been expected to put in those kinds of long hours was in case of an emergency. Stuff like, a natural disaster hit the company's primary data center so they needed to be all hands on deck to get services restored. But it's definitely not common day to day, and even in case of emergencies the company generally gives you a little something (extra time off, a bonus, whatever) to compensate you for the long hard hours you had to work.
- sgerenser 2y ago
  U.S. tech worker here. The only time I’ve ever worked 60-80 hour weeks was at a much smaller company, where for a month or two leading up to a trade show a whole bunch of work that had been put off was attempted to get crammed into the product. At my subsequent BigTech jobs I’ve never been asked/required to work more than 40 hours a week. I mean, nobody was tracking exact hours, but nobody was also pinging me at 8PM or on the weekend and expecting me to be working.
- fragmede 2y ago
  fascinating. I thought the meme was that FAANG tech workers were all day and lazy and didn't have to work that hard and were grossly overpaid, but that's as much a stereotype as the next one.
int_19h 2y ago
"Unlimited PTO" is discretionary in practice, and there are studies showing that it translates to less PTO on average, which is exactly why companies do it.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  And I mentioned on average people take 20-25 days a year and managers are dinged if their reports don’t take at least 15 days a year. I don’t care what the “average” is. I plan on taking 30 days this year.
  - alternatex 2y ago
    Your last sentence reads a bit like "I don't care about statistics, I prefer my anecdote".
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Okay. First link -16 days for unlimited PTO vs 14 days without https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/ive-been-an-hr-professional-for-25-years-and-i-absolutely-hate-unlimited-pto/91130552 https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/ive-been-an-hr-professiona...
      - int_19h 2y ago
        I'm genuinely curious if you've actually read the article you linked to, given that the line literally above the numbers you quoted says, in large font and bold caps: "Employees don’t get more time off (and may actually get fewer days away from work)". Did it not make you wonder why? Now if you look at where those numbers come from, this article quotes another article from WSJ (https://archive.is/MVRur https://archive.is/MVRur) which is also titled "Why You Should Be Wary of the Unlimited Vacation Perk". Hmm... And the WSJ article, in turn, takes its number from this report: https://www.empower.com/the-currency/work/pursuit-of-pto-research https://www.empower.com/the-currency/work/pursuit-of-pto-res... Now when you look at the survey, the problem with comparing those numbers is that they are averages for all workers. That is, 14 days without PTO is the average across all companies, not just those that had adopted UPTO. And the 16 days with UPTO is, of course, only for those companies. So the numbers don't actually tell you anything about the effect of "unlimited" PTO adoption in a given company. Those companies where 14 days is the norm are generally not the ones that decide to switch to UPTO because, well, there's no actual benefit in it for them. Companies that do adopt it, like many Big Tech firms in the past few years, are also the ones that had much more generous paid PTO to begin with - at Microsoft, for example, as a senior engineer, I had four weeks of PTO before the switch. So, you need to look at comparisons before and after UPTO adoption for the same company to see the trend. Conveniently, that very article you linked to has some sources for that, e.g.: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220520-the-smoke-and-mirrors-of-unlimited-paid-time-off https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20220520-the-smoke-and-... There are other negative aspects to it, too. For example, when you have guaranteed vacation PTO, it is wholly separate from other things like paid medical leave. But with UPTO, it's that much harder to argue for it to your manager if you have already taken medical leave that year.

apwell23 2y ago

never worked more than 40hr/week (including hellhole amazon). i get 28 days pto now and unlimited sick days. > If I calculate my hourly salary it's better than what I was paid by US companies prbly not.

cloverich 2y ago

I worked 80 hours a week in medical school, depending on the rotation. From that experience I can tell you, the majority of people that say they work 80 hours a week, don't even know what that looks like.

geodel 2y ago

This 60-80 hrs/week maybe a startup myth. Since Europe in general has far fewer startups than US people hear these wild numbers in Europe far less. For normal big tech worker, or enterprise workers 40 hrs is really the norm. Now many people specially in contracting, consulting can stretch hours for billing purpose or impressing upon clients thats a different matter.