4 ms·

A friend of mine said they would love to move out from Tokyo to these towns - lower rent, much more nature - but as a foreigner you would be extremely isolated

A friend of mine said they would love to move out from Tokyo to these towns - lower rent, much more nature - but as a foreigner you would be extremely isolated if your japanese is not perfect, and due to rampant racism.

kristopolous 2y ago
I've brought up the racism question to Japanese people I know who live in Japan (I've got reasons for traveling there multiple times a year). I've seen either two responses: 1. it doesn't exist 2. it does exist, and here is why it's acceptable! The third one, which is the american response (it does exist and it is unacceptable) I haven't heard yet. I've also heard people with darker complexions get an entirely different treatment - as in, it's not just foreigner but also, what kind.
- xdfgh1112 2y ago
  Most people complaining have never lived somewhere as a minority or immigrant before and it's a shock to them. No shit you are completely different to 99% of the country culturally and visually and people treat you differently. Who would have guessed.
- tidenly 2y ago
  While it's true a lot of people (particularly white Americans who've never experienced being a minority) will complain about minor things like just being treated differently, there are some obvious issues like housing discrimination, where you can be a incredibly high earner with a stable job, living in Japan for decades, and still be told no just because you're a foreigner. (To be fair, I think discriminating on visa length, time in Japan so far, income, job type is perfectly fine - just no reason to outright say no to all foreigners) Small town living is kind of a different kettle of fish though. There can be lots of committees, local rules and association fees you're expected to take part in. Lots of these aren't really forced or regulated "by law", but someone from there is just expected to play into them. Lots of younger Japanese people and foreigners move there, learn about these and find them unbearable -and if you don't play ball you can be treated badly. In rural areas though the main thing for foreigners is that you'll kind of become a town character "foreigner-san". Kind of unavoidable when you're the only foreign face many of these people will have ever met. I think some foreigners have this dream if they assimilate enough people will just pretend they're not a foreigner anymore, which personally I think is unrealistic and silly - you are foreign. The truly happy people here find a way to integrate while coming to peace with the fact they're obviously different.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  These are also the two answers you'd get asking white people in the jim crow south or apartheid south africa fwiw. Not saying japan is some racist hellhole just pointing out that the dominant social group doesn't have the clearest picture of these dynamics and even if they do they have extremely strong motivations to dismiss or downplay it.
  - anannymoose 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - giraffe_lady 2y ago
      I don't quite understand you, maybe you could tell me more about what I feel.
- ProllyInfamous 2y ago
  As a white American, I remember respecting the `NO WHITES` signs (as a people attempting to preserve their cultural identity, which I feel a nation is entitled)... even if it made finding a sauna to visit extremely difficult. This was eighteen years ago, and I hope nothing has changed in Japan.
  - nearlyepic 2y ago
    As a Jewish Hungarian, I remember respecting the `NEIN JUDE` signs (as a people attempting to preserve their cultural identity, which I feel a nation is entitled)... even if it made finding a shop to visit extremely difficult. This was eighteen years ago, and I hope nothing has changed in Germany.
    - evidencetamper 2y ago
      Not every form of discrimination is the holocaust. It is very important to not be extreme when dealing with human ignorance. For mild cases of discrimination, especially those coming from fear and ignorance, engaging in full confrontation is not necessarily the most effective strategy to reduce said discrimination. It might actually increase it. Now if faced with hate speech, that's a much higher degree. That needs a different strategy to reduce it. But unless you are looking at actual segregation and genocide, dropping a Nazi accusation is hardly constructive.
      - nearlyepic 2y ago
        Holy projection, batman. I deliberately copied the comment verbatim and changed to an extreme example to demonstrate the problems with it. Anyways, a "no whites" sign is definitely "actual segregation" and I'm not going to debate it or any apologia (which is what your comment is).
        ProllyInfamous 2y ago
        One of the "justifications," should you desire to care for the Japanese POV, was explained this way: We grew up in this small town all seeing each other naked; for outsiders to come in and disrupt their `normal`, would be disrespectful to their culture. My native partner and I eventually found a large enough / open enough spa which allowed us both in without concern (we just had to travel more, which was fine/informative; and promise not to "be disrespectful" // fuck). Definitely discrimination against non-Japanese might still be common in less-urban areas ... yet your "rewording" my comment to be Nazi-themed is (by your own perogative) just another unrelated confirmation of Godwin's Law.
- hollerith 2y ago
  Also, even the Japanese that would accept an American as a friend or a tenant are not accepting of the standard American moral stance towards racism. I.e., to be accepted, you basically have to be tolerant of the racism in Japanese society: the Japanese have a very low tolerance for non-Japanese persons who try to change Japanese society. Or so I've gathered from people who've been to Japan, then written about it or spoken about it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
xelxebar 2y ago
It's not racism so much as conservative protectionism. The smaller the town, the more their functioning relies on the cooperative efforts of individuals. Like, the fire brigade is likely just a handful of farmers who agree to do drills and respond when necessary. When that cooperative necessity permeates every part of your life, it's pretty natural to be slow to trust. Villages already have enough oddball characters that they don't really care about a random foreigner so much as they care whether you are dependable and trustworthy.
- Trasmatta 2y ago
  I'm sure all those things are true, but racism is also ever present.
mitthrowaway2 2y ago
In my experience, it's just the opposite in the countryside. Show even the slightest interest in speaking Japanese and respecting Japanese culture and norms, and you're shown a warm welcome, much warmer than a random Japanese stranger would be given, and much warmer than in the cities where people have gotten weary from repeated bad experiences with clueless tourists.

kristopolous 2y ago

I've brought up the racism question to Japanese people I know who live in Japan (I've got reasons for traveling there multiple times a year). I've seen either two responses: 1. it doesn't exist 2. it does exist, and here is why it's acceptable! The third one, which is the american response (it does exist and it is unacceptable) I haven't heard yet. I've also heard people with darker complexions get an entirely different treatment - as in, it's not just foreigner but also, what kind.

xdfgh1112 2y ago
Most people complaining have never lived somewhere as a minority or immigrant before and it's a shock to them. No shit you are completely different to 99% of the country culturally and visually and people treat you differently. Who would have guessed.
tidenly 2y ago
While it's true a lot of people (particularly white Americans who've never experienced being a minority) will complain about minor things like just being treated differently, there are some obvious issues like housing discrimination, where you can be a incredibly high earner with a stable job, living in Japan for decades, and still be told no just because you're a foreigner. (To be fair, I think discriminating on visa length, time in Japan so far, income, job type is perfectly fine - just no reason to outright say no to all foreigners) Small town living is kind of a different kettle of fish though. There can be lots of committees, local rules and association fees you're expected to take part in. Lots of these aren't really forced or regulated "by law", but someone from there is just expected to play into them. Lots of younger Japanese people and foreigners move there, learn about these and find them unbearable -and if you don't play ball you can be treated badly. In rural areas though the main thing for foreigners is that you'll kind of become a town character "foreigner-san". Kind of unavoidable when you're the only foreign face many of these people will have ever met. I think some foreigners have this dream if they assimilate enough people will just pretend they're not a foreigner anymore, which personally I think is unrealistic and silly - you are foreign. The truly happy people here find a way to integrate while coming to peace with the fact they're obviously different.
giraffe_lady 2y ago
These are also the two answers you'd get asking white people in the jim crow south or apartheid south africa fwiw. Not saying japan is some racist hellhole just pointing out that the dominant social group doesn't have the clearest picture of these dynamics and even if they do they have extremely strong motivations to dismiss or downplay it.
- anannymoose 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    I don't quite understand you, maybe you could tell me more about what I feel.
ProllyInfamous 2y ago
As a white American, I remember respecting the `NO WHITES` signs (as a people attempting to preserve their cultural identity, which I feel a nation is entitled)... even if it made finding a sauna to visit extremely difficult. This was eighteen years ago, and I hope nothing has changed in Japan.
- nearlyepic 2y ago
  As a Jewish Hungarian, I remember respecting the `NEIN JUDE` signs (as a people attempting to preserve their cultural identity, which I feel a nation is entitled)... even if it made finding a shop to visit extremely difficult. This was eighteen years ago, and I hope nothing has changed in Germany.
  - evidencetamper 2y ago
    Not every form of discrimination is the holocaust. It is very important to not be extreme when dealing with human ignorance. For mild cases of discrimination, especially those coming from fear and ignorance, engaging in full confrontation is not necessarily the most effective strategy to reduce said discrimination. It might actually increase it. Now if faced with hate speech, that's a much higher degree. That needs a different strategy to reduce it. But unless you are looking at actual segregation and genocide, dropping a Nazi accusation is hardly constructive.
    - nearlyepic 2y ago
      Holy projection, batman. I deliberately copied the comment verbatim and changed to an extreme example to demonstrate the problems with it. Anyways, a "no whites" sign is definitely "actual segregation" and I'm not going to debate it or any apologia (which is what your comment is).
      - ProllyInfamous 2y ago
        One of the "justifications," should you desire to care for the Japanese POV, was explained this way: We grew up in this small town all seeing each other naked; for outsiders to come in and disrupt their `normal`, would be disrespectful to their culture. My native partner and I eventually found a large enough / open enough spa which allowed us both in without concern (we just had to travel more, which was fine/informative; and promise not to "be disrespectful" // fuck). Definitely discrimination against non-Japanese might still be common in less-urban areas ... yet your "rewording" my comment to be Nazi-themed is (by your own perogative) just another unrelated confirmation of Godwin's Law.
hollerith 2y ago
Also, even the Japanese that would accept an American as a friend or a tenant are not accepting of the standard American moral stance towards racism. I.e., to be accepted, you basically have to be tolerant of the racism in Japanese society: the Japanese have a very low tolerance for non-Japanese persons who try to change Japanese society. Or so I've gathered from people who've been to Japan, then written about it or spoken about it.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

xelxebar 2y ago

It's not racism so much as conservative protectionism. The smaller the town, the more their functioning relies on the cooperative efforts of individuals. Like, the fire brigade is likely just a handful of farmers who agree to do drills and respond when necessary. When that cooperative necessity permeates every part of your life, it's pretty natural to be slow to trust. Villages already have enough oddball characters that they don't really care about a random foreigner so much as they care whether you are dependable and trustworthy.

Trasmatta 2y ago
I'm sure all those things are true, but racism is also ever present.

mitthrowaway2 2y ago

In my experience, it's just the opposite in the countryside. Show even the slightest interest in speaking Japanese and respecting Japanese culture and norms, and you're shown a warm welcome, much warmer than a random Japanese stranger would be given, and much warmer than in the cities where people have gotten weary from repeated bad experiences with clueless tourists.