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> “This type of initiative is always a plus. If someone has a cardiac arrest, the more people trained and defibrillators available, the better,” I suspect ther

> “This type of initiative is always a plus. If someone has a cardiac arrest, the more people trained and defibrillators available, the better,” I suspect there is a limit to this ideology. It's not an area where I'd expect more to automatically equal better. Moreover, if you want AEDs in residential areas, why not just install them there? Make it part of code for new constructions. > “And for Amazon, it valorizes their image.” At the expense of their employees. Do your delivery drivers get a pay bump? Do they get hazard pay? These scenarios can get pretty hairy and there's a decent chance they may end up watching someone die. Do they get time off? Counseling? Anything like what other first responders are expected to get? > The program’s backers also speculated that Project Pulse could improve driver retention. Managerial nonsense. They're trying to solve public perception problems of congestion and driver quality of life issues by having them run around with AEDs? This is pure corporate insanity.

rtkwe 1y ago
AEDs are about 1500 to 2000 generally here in the US at a quick glance and they're not a set and forget device you have to maintain them regularly or their battery will be dead when you go to use it. They only last about 2-5 years before they need replacing.
- timewizard 1y ago
  > you have to maintain them regularly or they battery will be dead The ones we have act like smoke alarms in a low battery state. They produce a visual flash and an audible chirp to draw your attention to the device. > They only last about 2-5 years before they need replacing. The batteries are replaceable.
  - glawre 1y ago
    It's not just the batteries that need regular servicing, the pads do too. They expire on a similar timescale to the batteries but most AEDs don't alarm for expired pads. It's not uncommon for AEDs to also need firmware updates, although this typically doesn't effect the usability of the device.
    - timewizard 1y ago
      > but most AEDs don't alarm for expired pads. There are prescription AEDs and non-prescription AEDs. In most of the non-prescription ones I've seen the pads are part of the self check and you will get an alert if they're out of tolerance or past expiration. All the Philips HeartStart AEDs, which is what we have in our offices, have this feature. > AEDs to also need firmware updates There's a set of release notes I'd very much like to read.
      - rtkwe 1y ago
        My point being requiring them to exist in every home doesn't guarantee they'll be available and usable where having them on the trucks and as part of a program they're more likely to be in decent shape. The other main thing I see is how often will people know where their required AED actually is in time to use it?
        timewizard 1y ago
        These same flaws exist in every safety device we deploy. In practice it's obvious that having a consistently deployed base mostly solves these issues. There are corner cases, to be sure, but how is the greatest amount of good served? Having these on delivery trucks ferried by unskilled drivers in non emergency vehicles who might just happen to be close enough? Or just having them in almost every house on the block even if some number of them fail to work on first use? I strongly suspect the latter is the better choice. Just replace AED with fire extinguisher and we could literally repeat this entire conversation.
  - repelsteeltje 1y ago
    You just described the nr. 1 reason why people hate fire alarms. Even though we all agree they are prudent, you rarely meet people for whom checking battery health is part of the routine is they go on holiday. The audible chirp (and eventual full out false alarm) is just horrible user interface for not-so exceptional use case.
- notahacker 1y ago
  Also, you need a despatch service and vehicle to get your home defibrillator to the stranger who called emergency services on the other side of the estate. I've heard of promising pilots with defibrillator drones, but using existing delivery infrastructure makes a lot of sense.
os2warpman 1y ago
> It's not an area where I'd expect more to automatically equal better. It really is. I've been to over a dozen cardiac arrests where the patient was surrounding by a gaggle of able-bodied adults, doing nothing except looking confused. Speed, even over quality, is of the essence: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21736-cardiac-arrest https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21736-cardiac... Even shitty CPR is better than no CPR. This is not opinion it is evidence-based medicine. https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/cpr-resuscitation/articles/study-bad-cpr-better-than-none-DKCeQ7Pr08ZKJBMo/ https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/cpr-resuscitation/articles...

rtkwe 1y ago

AEDs are about 1500 to 2000 generally here in the US at a quick glance and they're not a set and forget device you have to maintain them regularly or their battery will be dead when you go to use it. They only last about 2-5 years before they need replacing.

timewizard 1y ago
> you have to maintain them regularly or they battery will be dead The ones we have act like smoke alarms in a low battery state. They produce a visual flash and an audible chirp to draw your attention to the device. > They only last about 2-5 years before they need replacing. The batteries are replaceable.
- glawre 1y ago
  It's not just the batteries that need regular servicing, the pads do too. They expire on a similar timescale to the batteries but most AEDs don't alarm for expired pads. It's not uncommon for AEDs to also need firmware updates, although this typically doesn't effect the usability of the device.
  - timewizard 1y ago
    > but most AEDs don't alarm for expired pads. There are prescription AEDs and non-prescription AEDs. In most of the non-prescription ones I've seen the pads are part of the self check and you will get an alert if they're out of tolerance or past expiration. All the Philips HeartStart AEDs, which is what we have in our offices, have this feature. > AEDs to also need firmware updates There's a set of release notes I'd very much like to read.
    - rtkwe 1y ago
      My point being requiring them to exist in every home doesn't guarantee they'll be available and usable where having them on the trucks and as part of a program they're more likely to be in decent shape. The other main thing I see is how often will people know where their required AED actually is in time to use it?
      - timewizard 1y ago
        These same flaws exist in every safety device we deploy. In practice it's obvious that having a consistently deployed base mostly solves these issues. There are corner cases, to be sure, but how is the greatest amount of good served? Having these on delivery trucks ferried by unskilled drivers in non emergency vehicles who might just happen to be close enough? Or just having them in almost every house on the block even if some number of them fail to work on first use? I strongly suspect the latter is the better choice. Just replace AED with fire extinguisher and we could literally repeat this entire conversation.
- repelsteeltje 1y ago
  You just described the nr. 1 reason why people hate fire alarms. Even though we all agree they are prudent, you rarely meet people for whom checking battery health is part of the routine is they go on holiday. The audible chirp (and eventual full out false alarm) is just horrible user interface for not-so exceptional use case.
notahacker 1y ago
Also, you need a despatch service and vehicle to get your home defibrillator to the stranger who called emergency services on the other side of the estate. I've heard of promising pilots with defibrillator drones, but using existing delivery infrastructure makes a lot of sense.

os2warpman 1y ago

> It's not an area where I'd expect more to automatically equal better. It really is. I've been to over a dozen cardiac arrests where the patient was surrounding by a gaggle of able-bodied adults, doing nothing except looking confused. Speed, even over quality, is of the essence: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21736-cardiac-arrest https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/21736-cardiac... Even shitty CPR is better than no CPR. This is not opinion it is evidence-based medicine. https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/cpr-resuscitation/articles/study-bad-cpr-better-than-none-DKCeQ7Pr08ZKJBMo/ https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/cpr-resuscitation/articles...