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> Usually there is a hidden variable that you don't know. This is frequently the case. I've worked at big employers (comparable in level of corporate-ness to

> Usually there is a hidden variable that you don't know. This is frequently the case. I've worked at big employers (comparable in level of corporate-ness to Google if not absolute size) where the layoff process, roughly was: 1. Aggregate layoff target gets set and apportioned amongst functional leaders, then targets cascaded down to the line manager level. 2. Managers fill out a stack ranking spreadsheet for their team across a few metrics including a boolean "diversity" field[0]. There were many rumors about the "diversity field", most notably that anyone so flagged would not be fired, but so far as I could tell these were false (see point #4) 3. People to be fired are developed based on these lists (I.e., if a manager has to fire two people, then the two lowest-ranked employees per the spreadsheet are selected.) 4. HR does a meta-analysis of all to-be-fired employees, ensuring that a disproportionate number of employees from protected classes are not impacted. If too many are, then some of the next-lowest-ranked employees are selected to be fired in their stead. As far as I could tell, the only part of the process where any sort of individual, human consideration was occurring was maybe at the line manager level if they decided to tweak the stack rankings based on who they felt deserved to be protected. And then, to the extent that happens, you have all the problems with bias and favoritism that come into play. 0 - I realize this is probably controversial, but I saw it with my own eyes.

ricardobeat 1y ago
For some perspective, the bulk of this is simply illegal in the Netherlands, likely other countries in the EU as well: - layoff plans must be communicated ahead of time. Minimum 30 days notice, usually much more - Needs to be negotiated with worker representatives (works council, syndicate if there is one) - LIFO principle for layoffs, newest employees are let go first. Stack ranking not possible - Any kind of discrimination is forbidden - At a minimum, you get 2 months pay + accrued holidays It's baffling to imagine that you could learn about your job disappearing from one day to the next, and be immediately left out in the cold.
- klooney 1y ago
  > LIFO principle for layoffs, newest employees are let go first. Stack ranking not possible Newer employees often see this as incredibly unfair.
  - SR2Z 1y ago
    Because it is unfair. It just tends to benefit people employed today
    - lazide 1y ago
      The only fair system is a random lottery - which is also the most terrifying for everyone.
      - int_19h 1y ago
        Then again, if we did have a random lottery that required all employees (up to and including the CEO) to participate, then perhaps we'd see fewer layoffs...
        lazide 1y ago
        why would the company want that?
    - ncruces 1y ago
      It's not about being fair to the individual, it's about producing a better outcome for society. In this case, saving money on welfare (that's also in great measured pooled across society, not an individual account). Parents being able to take sick days to care for their kids, or 50yo being able to take leaves to take care of their dying 80yo parents are also unfair to kids in their 20s just starting out.
  - kergonath 1y ago
    If it’s the rule, everyone knows it. There is no guessing about randomness or hidden variables, and ultimately less favoritism than a line manager coming up with a stack ranking. Looking at the larger picture, what otherwise tends to happen is that older people get pushed out. Then we have a massive issue of them ending up unemployed because nobody wants to hire them. This is compounded by the retirement age being pushed further and further away.
- lurking_swe 1y ago
  it’s also a bit baffling that someone who’s been at the company longer than myself could have an advantage simply for being born before me, or for applying before me. Is work performance not a key deciding factor? One could argue that’s absurd. I don’t think the way it’s done in the U.S. is “right”, but i don’t think what you listed is right either.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Seniority based systems are ‘I got mine, f u’ or ‘politics in action’ depending on how you look at it. More senior employees have usually figured out how to get leverage on the employer over time. Non-seniority are usually ‘cheapest is best’, or ‘do what I say, or else’. Both have pros and cons for everyone involved. There is always some system though, even if it’s emergent.
  - ricardobeat 1y ago
    Layoffs are for companies to reduce the size of their workforce and lower operating costs, skill distribution remains the same – there are various exceptions to ensure this. If some employees are underperforming they should already be on their way out. That also is a process protected by law (no at-will employment here), otherwise layoffs would just be an excuse to expedite firings without going through the necessary steps. In short, being employed assumes you can perform at a satisfactory level, which makes sense to me. The flipside is that hiring is a much bigger commitment as people are not disposable. Voluntary severance packages are usually offered ahead of layoffs, and include compensation based on years worked, so things can balance out a little. The whole regulations are more about the social impact. Younger employees have an easier time re-arranging their lives and finding new jobs, are less likely to apply for welfare, and still have time left to switch careers, so this benefits everyone.
    - bryanrasmussen 1y ago
      >Layoffs are for companies to reduce the size of their workforce and lower operating costs, skill distribution remains the same – there are various exceptions to ensure this. But since this subthread is discussing LIFO layoffs, the problem is that generally the last in is also the lowest paid - not always of course - but if so it means that to hit your operating cost point you might need to reduce more people than you would if you could pick and choose.
- marcusb 1y ago
  > layoff plans must be communicated ahead of time. Minimum 30 days notice, usually much more In the United States, employers with more than 100 full-time, non-probationary employees must provide 60 days notice of most planned layoffs[0] > - LIFO principle for layoffs, newest employees are let go first. Stack ranking not possible This is functionally equivalent to a stack ranking in that it is a forced-distribution scheme. It is just based on a single factor that is outside of the employee's control. Say what you want about stack ranking, but people do have a large degree of control over their job performance. > Any kind of discrimination is forbidden In the United States any kind of job discrimination against members of protected classes[1] in illegal. Even inadvertently disparately impacting[2] members of a protected group is illegal. 0 - https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/termination/plantclosings https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/termination/plantclosings 1 - https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/small-business/3-who-protected-employment-discrimination https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/small-business/3-who-protecte... 2 - https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/disparate_impact https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/disparate_impact
  - whatshisface 1y ago
    There's no such thing as a protected group in US law - a protected class means a certain property of someone that employment decisions can't depend on, not a value of that property.
    - marcusb 1y ago
      First, I'll say it is pretty common to use the terms interchangeably. I don't think anyone was confused by what I wrote, or that your "clarification" was in any way helpful. See, for example, these legal groups using the term "protected group" in relation to US employment law: * https://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/1095_DiscriminationEmployOpps.htm https://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/1095_DiscriminationEm... * https://pedersenlaw.com/practice-areas/discrimination/ https://pedersenlaw.com/practice-areas/discrimination/ Secondly, I used the phrase "protected group" referring to disparate impact, and here, your assertion (to the extent it has any validity at all) is simply incorrect. The entire idea is to ferret out subtle acts of discrimination that have an outsize impact on a group consisting of members of a protected class, and in the case law you see the phrase "protected group" used explicitly. For example: On the contrary, the ultimate burden of proving that discrimination against a protected group has been caused by a specific employment practice remains with the plaintiff at all times (Watson v Fort Worth Bank & Trust, 487 US 977 - Supreme Court 1988[0]) 0 - https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6379456114316690563 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=637945611431669...
- coolgoose 1y ago
  I think you need to look at some of the recent Dutch firing sprees and figure out if that'd actualy respected ;)
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  Thank you for sharing this important information. What does a company in the Netherlands do when an employee is underperforming? Do they get "PIP'd" like Amazon? Then, eventually let go with some standard severance package?
  - eloisant 1y ago
    I can't talk about the Netherlands but if it's like France: the process is very different in the case of layoffs, where you want to reduce the workforce for economical reasons (e.g. shrinking revenues), and firing an individual employee. In the first case employees are not let go on the basis of the performances. Firing individual employees for performances or because they made a serious offense is a different completely process. Whether they get a severance package or not depends on the reason of the firing.
  - sublimefire 1y ago
    Yes and no, as it is a difficult process because employer needs to prove it is not their fault that employee is not performing. To begin with you need to collect data over time, so pip is kind of a choice you’d go through to start collecting detailed info, then it might be that a simple course could help solve this if it is a knowledge based issue, then maybe there is another job in the company the employee could switch to, etc. Without any doubt employers do not like the process, it is easier to eliminate positions instead because it is not technically firing.
goldchainposse 1y ago
> diversity field If this was even in the spreadsheet, whether or not it were used, the current administration would love to hear about it.
- marcusb 1y ago
  This was more than a decade ago, so I doubt they care that much, and if you want to accuse me of being a liar, please have the integrity to just say that.

ricardobeat 1y ago

For some perspective, the bulk of this is simply illegal in the Netherlands, likely other countries in the EU as well: - layoff plans must be communicated ahead of time. Minimum 30 days notice, usually much more - Needs to be negotiated with worker representatives (works council, syndicate if there is one) - LIFO principle for layoffs, newest employees are let go first. Stack ranking not possible - Any kind of discrimination is forbidden - At a minimum, you get 2 months pay + accrued holidays It's baffling to imagine that you could learn about your job disappearing from one day to the next, and be immediately left out in the cold.

klooney 1y ago
> LIFO principle for layoffs, newest employees are let go first. Stack ranking not possible Newer employees often see this as incredibly unfair.
- SR2Z 1y ago
  Because it is unfair. It just tends to benefit people employed today
  - lazide 1y ago
    The only fair system is a random lottery - which is also the most terrifying for everyone.
    - int_19h 1y ago
      Then again, if we did have a random lottery that required all employees (up to and including the CEO) to participate, then perhaps we'd see fewer layoffs...
      - lazide 1y ago
        why would the company want that?
  - ncruces 1y ago
    It's not about being fair to the individual, it's about producing a better outcome for society. In this case, saving money on welfare (that's also in great measured pooled across society, not an individual account). Parents being able to take sick days to care for their kids, or 50yo being able to take leaves to take care of their dying 80yo parents are also unfair to kids in their 20s just starting out.
- kergonath 1y ago
  If it’s the rule, everyone knows it. There is no guessing about randomness or hidden variables, and ultimately less favoritism than a line manager coming up with a stack ranking. Looking at the larger picture, what otherwise tends to happen is that older people get pushed out. Then we have a massive issue of them ending up unemployed because nobody wants to hire them. This is compounded by the retirement age being pushed further and further away.
lurking_swe 1y ago
it’s also a bit baffling that someone who’s been at the company longer than myself could have an advantage simply for being born before me, or for applying before me. Is work performance not a key deciding factor? One could argue that’s absurd. I don’t think the way it’s done in the U.S. is “right”, but i don’t think what you listed is right either.
- lazide 1y ago
  Seniority based systems are ‘I got mine, f u’ or ‘politics in action’ depending on how you look at it. More senior employees have usually figured out how to get leverage on the employer over time. Non-seniority are usually ‘cheapest is best’, or ‘do what I say, or else’. Both have pros and cons for everyone involved. There is always some system though, even if it’s emergent.
- ricardobeat 1y ago
  Layoffs are for companies to reduce the size of their workforce and lower operating costs, skill distribution remains the same – there are various exceptions to ensure this. If some employees are underperforming they should already be on their way out. That also is a process protected by law (no at-will employment here), otherwise layoffs would just be an excuse to expedite firings without going through the necessary steps. In short, being employed assumes you can perform at a satisfactory level, which makes sense to me. The flipside is that hiring is a much bigger commitment as people are not disposable. Voluntary severance packages are usually offered ahead of layoffs, and include compensation based on years worked, so things can balance out a little. The whole regulations are more about the social impact. Younger employees have an easier time re-arranging their lives and finding new jobs, are less likely to apply for welfare, and still have time left to switch careers, so this benefits everyone.
  - bryanrasmussen 1y ago
    >Layoffs are for companies to reduce the size of their workforce and lower operating costs, skill distribution remains the same – there are various exceptions to ensure this. But since this subthread is discussing LIFO layoffs, the problem is that generally the last in is also the lowest paid - not always of course - but if so it means that to hit your operating cost point you might need to reduce more people than you would if you could pick and choose.
marcusb 1y ago
> layoff plans must be communicated ahead of time. Minimum 30 days notice, usually much more In the United States, employers with more than 100 full-time, non-probationary employees must provide 60 days notice of most planned layoffs[0] > - LIFO principle for layoffs, newest employees are let go first. Stack ranking not possible This is functionally equivalent to a stack ranking in that it is a forced-distribution scheme. It is just based on a single factor that is outside of the employee's control. Say what you want about stack ranking, but people do have a large degree of control over their job performance. > Any kind of discrimination is forbidden In the United States any kind of job discrimination against members of protected classes[1] in illegal. Even inadvertently disparately impacting[2] members of a protected group is illegal. 0 - https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/termination/plantclosings https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/termination/plantclosings 1 - https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/small-business/3-who-protected-employment-discrimination https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/small-business/3-who-protecte... 2 - https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/disparate_impact https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/disparate_impact
- whatshisface 1y ago
  There's no such thing as a protected group in US law - a protected class means a certain property of someone that employment decisions can't depend on, not a value of that property.
  - marcusb 1y ago
    First, I'll say it is pretty common to use the terms interchangeably. I don't think anyone was confused by what I wrote, or that your "clarification" was in any way helpful. See, for example, these legal groups using the term "protected group" in relation to US employment law: * https://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/1095_DiscriminationEmployOpps.htm https://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/1095_DiscriminationEm... * https://pedersenlaw.com/practice-areas/discrimination/ https://pedersenlaw.com/practice-areas/discrimination/ Secondly, I used the phrase "protected group" referring to disparate impact, and here, your assertion (to the extent it has any validity at all) is simply incorrect. The entire idea is to ferret out subtle acts of discrimination that have an outsize impact on a group consisting of members of a protected class, and in the case law you see the phrase "protected group" used explicitly. For example: On the contrary, the ultimate burden of proving that discrimination against a protected group has been caused by a specific employment practice remains with the plaintiff at all times (Watson v Fort Worth Bank & Trust, 487 US 977 - Supreme Court 1988[0]) 0 - https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=6379456114316690563 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=637945611431669...
coolgoose 1y ago
I think you need to look at some of the recent Dutch firing sprees and figure out if that'd actualy respected ;)
throwaway2037 1y ago
Thank you for sharing this important information. What does a company in the Netherlands do when an employee is underperforming? Do they get "PIP'd" like Amazon? Then, eventually let go with some standard severance package?
- eloisant 1y ago
  I can't talk about the Netherlands but if it's like France: the process is very different in the case of layoffs, where you want to reduce the workforce for economical reasons (e.g. shrinking revenues), and firing an individual employee. In the first case employees are not let go on the basis of the performances. Firing individual employees for performances or because they made a serious offense is a different completely process. Whether they get a severance package or not depends on the reason of the firing.
- sublimefire 1y ago
  Yes and no, as it is a difficult process because employer needs to prove it is not their fault that employee is not performing. To begin with you need to collect data over time, so pip is kind of a choice you’d go through to start collecting detailed info, then it might be that a simple course could help solve this if it is a knowledge based issue, then maybe there is another job in the company the employee could switch to, etc. Without any doubt employers do not like the process, it is easier to eliminate positions instead because it is not technically firing.

goldchainposse 1y ago

> diversity field If this was even in the spreadsheet, whether or not it were used, the current administration would love to hear about it.

marcusb 1y ago
This was more than a decade ago, so I doubt they care that much, and if you want to accuse me of being a liar, please have the integrity to just say that.