7 ms·

The contention is that they in particular aren't good faith actors unlike other outside actors, iiuc.

Retric 1y ago
Bad faith actors are also beneficial. Kids who grow up watching commercials start distrusting them. Free speech is not about any one issue but all topics. In many ways curating so people see the kinds of things they agree with is vastly more harmful than propaganda.
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  What happens when people are tol 1. Don't trust the media 2. Don't trust the opposition 3. Don't trust the experts Doesn't this lead to a situation where only bad actors exist? It people are so savy because of advertising why did tens of millions believe the election was stolen?
  - Retric 1y ago
    > What happens when people are… Everyone doesn’t fit those criteria. Motivated reasoning exists with and without propaganda. The specific words used may end up mimicking “a message,” but you can find millions of disgruntled people after any election. There’s a great deal of talk around how much social media etc changed the landscape but American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.
    - Braxton1980 1y ago
      >American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook. Trump and MAGA Republicans lie more openly than traditional Republicans. American politics are not the same. Here's an easy exercise. This is a post from MGT. Show me anything even close to this insane from an elected person in high office (house, senate, president) in the last 50 years https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/static/D8Image/2021/01/27/marjorietaylorgreene-campfire.png?itok=NbipA3UY https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/st...
      - Retric 1y ago
        That’s fairly mild, but it’s not so easy to link to 20+ year old clips. There’s some real bangers of homophobic rants in your time frame, but you may be a little young to remember any of them. In terms of lies here’s one that was a central tenant of the part of the party line for decades. Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.
        Braxton1980 1y ago
        Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement >Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax. SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true
        Retric 1y ago
        > Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement The lies about gay people are actual lies, even if they come from homophobia. Luring people into gayness, crap about destroying the institution of marriage etc etc. > SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true When taking about “tax burden,” there’s no excuse around the names. I’ve got little interest in digging up 20 year old clips, but you’re 45 you should remember that phrase.
        Braxton1980 1y ago
        >but you may be a little young to remember any of them. I'm 45 > Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax. I took too long to be able to edit my other comment but I should have asked who said this? Because "social security" isn't a tax at all. In my other comment I assumed you meant tax we pay to fund SS but this still leaves me confused, can you provide me with a quote that shows the lie?
        Retric 1y ago
        > Because "social security" isn't a tax at all. There’s a line on your W-2 that literally says “4. Social Security Tax withheld” https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf You literally just said “SS tax is a tax on your income”
- goatlover 1y ago
  I no longer believe this, seeing how democracy is under threat around the world from such abuses of free speech.
  - ghssds 1y ago
    Free speech is an essential component of democracy.
    - Braxton1980 1y ago
      1.The majority of people are not intelligent. Source is polls on whether there was wide spread election fraud 2. Politicans want money and power. They have no issues lying or manipulating people to get it 3. In a country like Russia the government can counter any information with widespread arrests and fear. 4. In a country with free speech there is little to no recourse. Meaning that Russia, China, etc can use misinformation against us and we can't do anything. On the other hand we can try the same but they can simply use authoritarian tactics to supress it. 5. Trump has shown that the threshold for lying was set artificially low by past politicians. His success while lying about events that are easily disproven multiple times is evidence for all future politicians to lie.
      - Retric 1y ago
        “The number of people overall who believe the election was fraudulent has hovered around 35% since November 2020, but this percentage has not increased significantly as the claim purports.” https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-image/no-most-americans-dont-believe-2020-election-was-f/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-imag... Which is different than asking if voting fraud changed the outcome and more importantly different than asking which side benefited. Someone who calls targeted overly aggressive culling of voter registrations fraud has something of a point, even if that’s a long way from stuffing ballots or meaningful changes in results.
        Braxton1980 1y ago

Bad faith actors are also beneficial. Kids who grow up watching commercials start distrusting them. Free speech is not about any one issue but all topics. In many ways curating so people see the kinds of things they agree with is vastly more harmful than propaganda.

Braxton1980 1y ago
What happens when people are tol 1. Don't trust the media 2. Don't trust the opposition 3. Don't trust the experts Doesn't this lead to a situation where only bad actors exist? It people are so savy because of advertising why did tens of millions believe the election was stolen?
- Retric 1y ago
  > What happens when people are… Everyone doesn’t fit those criteria. Motivated reasoning exists with and without propaganda. The specific words used may end up mimicking “a message,” but you can find millions of disgruntled people after any election. There’s a great deal of talk around how much social media etc changed the landscape but American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.
  - Braxton1980 1y ago
    >American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook. Trump and MAGA Republicans lie more openly than traditional Republicans. American politics are not the same. Here's an easy exercise. This is a post from MGT. Show me anything even close to this insane from an elected person in high office (house, senate, president) in the last 50 years https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/static/D8Image/2021/01/27/marjorietaylorgreene-campfire.png?itok=NbipA3UY https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/st...
    - Retric 1y ago
      That’s fairly mild, but it’s not so easy to link to 20+ year old clips. There’s some real bangers of homophobic rants in your time frame, but you may be a little young to remember any of them. In terms of lies here’s one that was a central tenant of the part of the party line for decades. Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.
      - Braxton1980 1y ago
        Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement >Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax. SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true
        Retric 1y ago
        > Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement The lies about gay people are actual lies, even if they come from homophobia. Luring people into gayness, crap about destroying the institution of marriage etc etc. > SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true When taking about “tax burden,” there’s no excuse around the names. I’ve got little interest in digging up 20 year old clips, but you’re 45 you should remember that phrase.
      - Braxton1980 1y ago
        >but you may be a little young to remember any of them. I'm 45 > Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax. I took too long to be able to edit my other comment but I should have asked who said this? Because "social security" isn't a tax at all. In my other comment I assumed you meant tax we pay to fund SS but this still leaves me confused, can you provide me with a quote that shows the lie?
        Retric 1y ago
        > Because "social security" isn't a tax at all. There’s a line on your W-2 that literally says “4. Social Security Tax withheld” https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf You literally just said “SS tax is a tax on your income”
goatlover 1y ago
I no longer believe this, seeing how democracy is under threat around the world from such abuses of free speech.
- ghssds 1y ago
  Free speech is an essential component of democracy.
  - Braxton1980 1y ago
    1.The majority of people are not intelligent. Source is polls on whether there was wide spread election fraud 2. Politicans want money and power. They have no issues lying or manipulating people to get it 3. In a country like Russia the government can counter any information with widespread arrests and fear. 4. In a country with free speech there is little to no recourse. Meaning that Russia, China, etc can use misinformation against us and we can't do anything. On the other hand we can try the same but they can simply use authoritarian tactics to supress it. 5. Trump has shown that the threshold for lying was set artificially low by past politicians. His success while lying about events that are easily disproven multiple times is evidence for all future politicians to lie.
    - Retric 1y ago
      “The number of people overall who believe the election was fraudulent has hovered around 35% since November 2020, but this percentage has not increased significantly as the claim purports.” https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-image/no-most-americans-dont-believe-2020-election-was-f/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-imag... Which is different than asking if voting fraud changed the outcome and more importantly different than asking which side benefited. Someone who calls targeted overly aggressive culling of voter registrations fraud has something of a point, even if that’s a long way from stuffing ballots or meaningful changes in results.
      - Braxton1980 1y ago