6 ms·

Wonder if anyone is working on ways for breaks and tires to be less harmful, or polluting?

by azinman2 2y ago

dmckeon 2y ago
Regenerative braking would tend to reduce particulates from friction braking.
- Swizec 2y ago
  Most European cars already have engine braking. EV regenerative braking just maintains the behavior that folks only used to automatics forgot about. Automatics I think are still not super common in Europe.
  - beardyw 2y ago
    In the UK about one third are automatic but make up three quarters of new registrations.
    - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
      I don't know if EVs and hybrids are very popular in the UK but they are all automatics.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        Hybrids are surely not all automatic, unless the one we own suddenly changed.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  But spews forth more rubber (and plastic, since that's what tyres are made from these days), which is an ongoing problem for Tesla EVs when owners discover their tyres don't last nearly as long because they're transmitting power both when starting and stopping, not just when starting.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    I don’t understand this concept. I would expect an ICE and an EV vehicle with the same weight, speed, deceleration, tires, etc to have the same wear on tires. The difference being the energy to stop an ICE being transferred to the brake pads and rotors, rather than recharging the EV’s battery. What am I missing? Why wouldn’t the tires experience the same forces in both scenarios?
    - trollbridge 2y ago
      It's due to the regenerative braking, which transmits more power via the wheels when decelerating. Most ICE cards don't have regenerative braking; hybrids tend to.
      - lotsofpulp 2y ago
        If the stopping distance is the same (same accel/decel), I don’t understand this statement > because they're transmitting power both when starting and stopping, not just when starting. bri3d’s adjacent post is what my thoughts would be on why EV’s consume more tires.
      - bri3d 2y ago
        This doesn't make sense. Energy in the system is conserved. On an ICE car, brakes convert the energy to heat. On an EV, motors convert the energy to electricity. The tires experience the same net force. EVs wear tires more quickly, in general, because they are very heavy and produce more torque (and drivers are more likely to request that torque, also).
        flomo 2y ago
        I'd guess an ICE transmission provides some deceleration too. But right on, apples-to-apples you would need to compare a Tesla to a Mercedes or etc and not a Corolla. They are sold as a luxury/performance car.
        chowells 2y ago
NightMKoder 2y ago
I don’t know about tires, but for brakes we already know how to make lower dust brakes - use drum brakes instead of disc brakes. The friction material is enclosed on drum brakes so much less of it just flies away.
- oblio 2y ago
  Can drum brakes be used for all kinds of vehicles?
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    They were for many decades… Even if there’s 5% of vehicles that couldn’t use them, it would still be a large decrease in local particulates. (I don’t expect this to happen, of course, absent draconian particulate emissions laws.)
- dharmab 2y ago
  Ever driven a vehicle with drums in the front? Even on a light vehicle they take a long time to stop.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  There's also EVs that generally do most of their braking on the regenerative whatsit, which causes no wear on the brake pads. A lot of it can be prevented by education / driving style, and improving road designs to allow for smooth driving.
  - cure 2y ago
    Pretty much every EV does regenerative baking, because it (greatly) extends range. Even hybrids have done this since the very earliest mass-market models (the 1997 Prius has it). EV brakes see a lot less wear and tear than ICE brakes.
  - tom89999 2y ago
    If you look at what cars of this type are produced and who drives them, it quickly becomes clear where the road is heading. Huge off-road vehicles, albeit with electric drive, are missing the mark. These things are advertised with sporty performance, comfort and so on. In my opinion, energy is being thrown out the window to satisfy the ego of the buyer. These people are buying themselves a clear conscience. Even if the cars are electric, where can they be charged? Not everyone lives in the houses you see in the advertisements. Not everyone can just go into debt for something like this. I drive an economical petrol car with 200k kilometers on the clock. I don't need to produce anything new or use any rare earths or energy. Even with electric cars, the plastic for the door panels has to be made from crude oil. The cost of installing all the electronics is also high. I drive this car until I can't drive any more, I mostly use public transport, but sometimes I have to use the car for the weekly shop. I'm also staying in the city because I'm getting older and I'm dependent on doctors and markets, at the moment I work outside the city, like many others, and people just need a car to park here. Not everyone has the same life as others. Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
usrusr 2y ago
Lighter cars, really, that's it. Make vehicles that match the transportation case in question instead of palaces on wheels that carry battery sized for solving some once in a year use case. And/or make them go slower.
- potato3732842 2y ago
  You can use harder rubber compounds but that's a non-starter because longer stopping distances.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    It is common for electric cars to use harder rubber compounds in their tires. Not because of particulates, but because tire noise is particularly noticeable in an otherwise quiet electric car, and because tire life is a concern for EV drivers. Luckily, both reduced noise and increased life are fairly well correlated with reduced particulate emission.
- netsharc 2y ago
  Huh, imagine EVs that have removable add-on batteries that you'd only plug in for the longer trips.. Like the Thinkpads with the "bigger battery" humps: https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_ap/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-thinkpad-x250-right-side-with-extended-battery_v2ga.1080.jpg https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_ap/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-th...
  - jopsen 2y ago
    A battery trailer might affect the speed limit your allowed to drive. But it would be cool to just rent the extra 500km when needed :)
    - netsharc 2y ago
      Obviously a trailer would not be a clever idea, but Nio already has cars with swappable batteries, for short distances you could just install a battery pack which is maybe 20% battery and 80% empty space https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
EU is introducing limits for this as part of the Euro 7 standard, which is spurring various tech improvements.
lostlogin 2y ago
Regenerative braking helps with brake dust, but is probably offset by extra tyre wear on EVs. I go weeks without using the brakes and usually don’t even touch the brake pedal.
FredPret 2y ago
I wouldn’t be surprised if we make great strides in this at the rate that materials science is barrelling along
jeffbee 2y ago
Normal car designers who aren't drug-addicted sociopaths have already more than solved this problem. If you put hard, narrow, high-lifetime tires on small diameter wheels you get a car that it more efficient, quieter, cheaper to operate, and pollutes less in terms of particulate matter. If you are Elon Musk you sell a car with totally inappropriate summer racing tires on 20-inch wheels and the owners have to replace the whole set every year.

Wonder if anyone is working on ways for breaks and tires to be less harmful, or polluting?

dmckeon 2y ago

Regenerative braking would tend to reduce particulates from friction braking.

Swizec 2y ago
Most European cars already have engine braking. EV regenerative braking just maintains the behavior that folks only used to automatics forgot about. Automatics I think are still not super common in Europe.
- beardyw 2y ago
  In the UK about one third are automatic but make up three quarters of new registrations.
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    I don't know if EVs and hybrids are very popular in the UK but they are all automatics.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Hybrids are surely not all automatic, unless the one we own suddenly changed.
trollbridge 2y ago
But spews forth more rubber (and plastic, since that's what tyres are made from these days), which is an ongoing problem for Tesla EVs when owners discover their tyres don't last nearly as long because they're transmitting power both when starting and stopping, not just when starting.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  I don’t understand this concept. I would expect an ICE and an EV vehicle with the same weight, speed, deceleration, tires, etc to have the same wear on tires. The difference being the energy to stop an ICE being transferred to the brake pads and rotors, rather than recharging the EV’s battery. What am I missing? Why wouldn’t the tires experience the same forces in both scenarios?
  - trollbridge 2y ago
    It's due to the regenerative braking, which transmits more power via the wheels when decelerating. Most ICE cards don't have regenerative braking; hybrids tend to.
    - lotsofpulp 2y ago
      If the stopping distance is the same (same accel/decel), I don’t understand this statement > because they're transmitting power both when starting and stopping, not just when starting. bri3d’s adjacent post is what my thoughts would be on why EV’s consume more tires.
    - bri3d 2y ago
      This doesn't make sense. Energy in the system is conserved. On an ICE car, brakes convert the energy to heat. On an EV, motors convert the energy to electricity. The tires experience the same net force. EVs wear tires more quickly, in general, because they are very heavy and produce more torque (and drivers are more likely to request that torque, also).
      - flomo 2y ago
        I'd guess an ICE transmission provides some deceleration too. But right on, apples-to-apples you would need to compare a Tesla to a Mercedes or etc and not a Corolla. They are sold as a luxury/performance car.
      - chowells 2y ago

NightMKoder 2y ago

I don’t know about tires, but for brakes we already know how to make lower dust brakes - use drum brakes instead of disc brakes. The friction material is enclosed on drum brakes so much less of it just flies away.

oblio 2y ago
Can drum brakes be used for all kinds of vehicles?
- sokoloff 2y ago
  They were for many decades… Even if there’s 5% of vehicles that couldn’t use them, it would still be a large decrease in local particulates. (I don’t expect this to happen, of course, absent draconian particulate emissions laws.)
dharmab 2y ago
Ever driven a vehicle with drums in the front? Even on a light vehicle they take a long time to stop.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
There's also EVs that generally do most of their braking on the regenerative whatsit, which causes no wear on the brake pads. A lot of it can be prevented by education / driving style, and improving road designs to allow for smooth driving.
- cure 2y ago
  Pretty much every EV does regenerative baking, because it (greatly) extends range. Even hybrids have done this since the very earliest mass-market models (the 1997 Prius has it). EV brakes see a lot less wear and tear than ICE brakes.
- tom89999 2y ago
  If you look at what cars of this type are produced and who drives them, it quickly becomes clear where the road is heading. Huge off-road vehicles, albeit with electric drive, are missing the mark. These things are advertised with sporty performance, comfort and so on. In my opinion, energy is being thrown out the window to satisfy the ego of the buyer. These people are buying themselves a clear conscience. Even if the cars are electric, where can they be charged? Not everyone lives in the houses you see in the advertisements. Not everyone can just go into debt for something like this. I drive an economical petrol car with 200k kilometers on the clock. I don't need to produce anything new or use any rare earths or energy. Even with electric cars, the plastic for the door panels has to be made from crude oil. The cost of installing all the electronics is also high. I drive this car until I can't drive any more, I mostly use public transport, but sometimes I have to use the car for the weekly shop. I'm also staying in the city because I'm getting older and I'm dependent on doctors and markets, at the moment I work outside the city, like many others, and people just need a car to park here. Not everyone has the same life as others. Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

usrusr 2y ago

Lighter cars, really, that's it. Make vehicles that match the transportation case in question instead of palaces on wheels that carry battery sized for solving some once in a year use case. And/or make them go slower.

potato3732842 2y ago
You can use harder rubber compounds but that's a non-starter because longer stopping distances.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  It is common for electric cars to use harder rubber compounds in their tires. Not because of particulates, but because tire noise is particularly noticeable in an otherwise quiet electric car, and because tire life is a concern for EV drivers. Luckily, both reduced noise and increased life are fairly well correlated with reduced particulate emission.
netsharc 2y ago
Huh, imagine EVs that have removable add-on batteries that you'd only plug in for the longer trips.. Like the Thinkpads with the "bigger battery" humps: https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_ap/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-thinkpad-x250-right-side-with-extended-battery_v2ga.1080.jpg https://sm.pcmag.com/t/pcmag_ap/photo/l/lenovo-thi/lenovo-th...
- jopsen 2y ago
  A battery trailer might affect the speed limit your allowed to drive. But it would be cool to just rent the extra 500km when needed :)
  - netsharc 2y ago
    Obviously a trailer would not be a clever idea, but Nio already has cars with swappable batteries, for short distances you could just install a battery pack which is maybe 20% battery and 80% empty space https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w

ZeroGravitas 2y ago

EU is introducing limits for this as part of the Euro 7 standard, which is spurring various tech improvements.

lostlogin 2y ago

Regenerative braking helps with brake dust, but is probably offset by extra tyre wear on EVs. I go weeks without using the brakes and usually don’t even touch the brake pedal.

FredPret 2y ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if we make great strides in this at the rate that materials science is barrelling along

jeffbee 2y ago

Normal car designers who aren't drug-addicted sociopaths have already more than solved this problem. If you put hard, narrow, high-lifetime tires on small diameter wheels you get a car that it more efficient, quieter, cheaper to operate, and pollutes less in terms of particulate matter. If you are Elon Musk you sell a car with totally inappropriate summer racing tires on 20-inch wheels and the owners have to replace the whole set every year.