5 ms·

"A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. " Of course. The British led the world and d

by Jd 14y ago

"A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. " Of course. The British led the world and did not offer (at the time) anyone the chance to be British either. In fact, they actively discouraged interbreeding. It is a dogma of the modern Occident that it is stronger to be multi-ethnic, and that national identity should be open to anyone. History shows us, however, that that is hardly a necessity for world empire. Full disclosure: I was once in love with a Chinese woman from an elite family, who I am fairly certain loved me but rejected me because I did not belong to the appropriate stock (with influence from her family). Lesson learned: if love is strong, kinship bonds are often stronger.

WalterSear 14y ago
That's not kinship - that's conformism.
batista 14y ago
>Of course. The British led the world and did not offer (at the time) anyone the chance to be British either. In fact, they actively discouraged interbreeding. It is a dogma of the modern Occident that it is stronger to be multi-ethnic, and that national identity should be open to anyone. History shows us, however, that that is hardly a necessity for world empire. True. And it wasn't ever better for the US. They had segregated schools, hotels and even buses as late as the sixties, and segregation for latinos, blacks etc, today under the pretext of income is stronger that ever: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States#Residential_segregation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_Unite...
chaostheory 14y ago
> A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. I feel that this only applies for the elite, especially when there's a lot of political infighting; marrying an outsider will weaken the whole family which is really bad in a low trust society but that's another topic. This is not true for all social levels of China. China has practiced for what my international affairs prof terms as "reverse genocide". What is it? When an ethnically Han Chinese man or woman marries a non-Han partner, their children and their whole family are considered Chinese. To be fair, there are exceptions since China (and you can argue most of Asia) is still somewhat racist. If your children do no look "Chinese", they will not be considered as chinese.
- guscost 14y ago
  In all fairness, many Europeans (and Americans, of course) are "somewhat racist" too.
  - jerf 14y ago
    The word is "human".
  - chaostheory 14y ago
    I feel there's a big difference when you compare the US to either Europe or Asia as a whole: we are very open about it and our failings with it. It's in our consciousness to work hard to fight against it. I think Europe is getting there with this frame of mind, but I don't feel that Asia even pretends to try.
    - guscost 14y ago
      I might agree with you, but I still think that declaring it outright might provoke the old "arrogant American" reaction.
- 286c8cb04bda 14y ago
  > This is not true for all social levels of China. I somewhat disagree. That type of "reverse genocide" only works in East Asia. One of the reasons for the ongoing conflict in Xinjiang is that the local Uyghur, Kyrgyz, et al. don't look Chinese and don't pay any lip service to the "superiority" of Han culture. > If your children do no look "Chinese", they will not be considered as chinese. And this is the reason why. Even though their mother is 100% Han, my own children easily pass as average WASPs. No matter how long they live in China, no matter how fluent they are in Mandarin, they will never be accepted as Chinese by anyone other than her relatives.
  - chaostheory 14y ago
    I'm confused. You "disagree", yet I don't see anything that really disagrees from my post. > One of the reasons for the ongoing conflict in Xinjiang is that the local Uyghur, Kyrgyz, et al. don't look Chinese and don't pay any lip service to the "superiority" of Han culture. If Han Chinese ever start intermarrying with Uyghurs in greater numbers this will change. Given the ratio of males to females in the mainland, I would guess that this will happen way before a sexual revolution in China (which the lack of imo is the reason for the gender population gap). I feel that this is the same reason that Han chinese started to intermarry with both Mongols and Tibetans. > Even though their mother is 100% Han, my own children easily pass as average WASPs. Not all Happas pass as WASPs. A lot of my cousins can pass as Han. This guy is another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Locke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Locke
colmvp 14y ago
Whereas most Asian men in Western countries get rejected by Caucasian females for not being Caucasian. (Source: OkCupid studies, anecdotes, Quora, etc.)
- cromwellian 14y ago
  That seems to be a trend which is improving however (more Asian Male/Caucasian Female couples) At least in California among professionals.
  - Jd 14y ago
    Are there statistics that indicate the situation is improving? I'm not in Cali anymore but have Asian american male friends who like Caucasian women that would be interested in this.
    - cromwellian 14y ago
      I don't have any statistics, just anecdotes. I've just noticed an uptick in AM/WF couples. My neighbors across the screen. My friend who just got married. People I see at work. Without being too cynical, I attribute this to a natural outgrowth of the economic success of AMs, the rising tides in Asia, and more and more AMs appearing in media. (e.g. Daniel Dae Kim in Lost) Let's be honest, men's romantic liberty in choosing mates is often proportional to economic success. It all started with Russell Wong and the Noxema Girl in "Vanishing Son" :)
      - lamby 14y ago
        > Let's be honest, men's romantic liberty in choosing mates is often proportional to economic success. Possibly the kindest way I've ever seen that phrased.
- xiaoma 14y ago
  This whole, "oh the west is just as bad" troupe needs to die. But if they do have children, they don't have to endure this: http://www.chinasmack.com/2009/stories/shanghai-black-girl-lou-jing-racist-chinese-netizens.html http://www.chinasmack.com/2009/stories/shanghai-black-girl-l... Can you even imagine a "mixed" kid who grew up entirely in the US being cussed out by well over half the commenters on a talent show, and for even the kids mother to be attacked relentlessly for being with a man of a different color? The WSJ link doesn't even get into the worst of it. You should have seen the weibo comments on Lou Jing.
msabalau 14y ago
Of course, that we speak of "the British" is a testament to a certain level of success of melding English/Scottish/Welsh identities, much of which happened in the context of imperial endeavor. And certainly many other groups (Sepoys, say) found their interests aligned at times with the imperial project, in a way that outweighed their ethnic background. Being open to a flexible interpretation of identity/citzenship (Brits, Romans) or having a nominally universal ideology/religion (Americans, Islamic caliphates) seems like it be a large help in successful world leadership, even if it's not a prerequisite.
- Jd 14y ago
  Granted. My own personal take is that you need to be very aware of the substrate (which includes genetics, ethnicity, religion, geography, available resources, etc.) and have a vision that is greater than the substrate. The problem with American empire at the present moment, in my very strongly held opinion, is that we are denying the impact of the substrate and launching into "economic-magic" which is very detached from value of any kind -- with the strong risk of impaling not only our own traditional strengths (goodbye American car companies) but the rest of the world economy with it. Along these lines, I wish the Chinese all the best for producing things things well that we care about and buy -- this is esp. true of Taiwan, which has retained some measure of traditional positive values that are not entirely materialistic, and I have some optimism that the not longer particularly Communist part can develop in a not especially materialistic direction. As for America, I think we need a miracle.
- swampthing 14y ago
  There's far more than 3 identities wrapped up in "the Chinese".
- Apocryphon 14y ago
  I find this interesting, because Chinese identity, as much as it is tied to Han ethnicity, seems to be something that could include once-outsiders, as long as they assimilate into it. The OP itself cites how the Mongol invaders established the Yuan dynasty, and the Manchu did the same with the Qing. Despite there is always a separation between Han and non-Han, I've found that the traditional (pre-20th century?) idea of "Chinese" is more tied to cultural traditions and the Confucian ethos, than ethnic/racial divisions. In some ways it's almost comparable to the concept of being "American" as in from the U.S., though of course far less malleable and open to including outside traditions. Consider the mythological origins of the Han: http://knowledgechina.blogspot.com/2010/02/origin-of-chinese.html http://knowledgechina.blogspot.com/2010/02/origin-of-chinese... "3000 years before the Han dynasty, when what we call China today was inhabited by various tribes, the mythical ancestors of the Han, the Huaxia, controlled swathes of land centered around the Yellow River. According to legend, the leader of the Huaxia, Huangdi, defeated the 4 surrounding tribes, to the North, South, East, and West of Huaxia and incorporated their people and territory. The 4 leaders of those tribes, along with Huangdi became known as the 5 Emperors. Legends also tell of Huangdi defeating and assimilate the tribe of Yandi. Together, Huangdi and Yandi have been viewed as the progenitors of the Han race, which refers to itself as 'descendants of yan and huang'." Even from the beginning, the Chinese came from the intermingling of multiple peoples, not one specific race. So I think the identity of "Chinese" can certainly be more cultural than ethnic/racial, and so open to outsiders who self-assimilate. The questions are, what is Chinese culture in modernity? And if traditionalist Confucianism makes some sort of comeback, how will the world outside China react to it? Oh, and how do current Western/non-Chinese expats in China assimilate to local Confucian norms?

by Jd 14y ago

WalterSear 14y ago

That's not kinship - that's conformism.

batista 14y ago

>Of course. The British led the world and did not offer (at the time) anyone the chance to be British either. In fact, they actively discouraged interbreeding. It is a dogma of the modern Occident that it is stronger to be multi-ethnic, and that national identity should be open to anyone. History shows us, however, that that is hardly a necessity for world empire. True. And it wasn't ever better for the US. They had segregated schools, hotels and even buses as late as the sixties, and segregation for latinos, blacks etc, today under the pretext of income is stronger that ever: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_United_States#Residential_segregation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation_in_the_Unite...

chaostheory 14y ago

> A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because it is impossible to become Chinese. I feel that this only applies for the elite, especially when there's a lot of political infighting; marrying an outsider will weaken the whole family which is really bad in a low trust society but that's another topic. This is not true for all social levels of China. China has practiced for what my international affairs prof terms as "reverse genocide". What is it? When an ethnically Han Chinese man or woman marries a non-Han partner, their children and their whole family are considered Chinese. To be fair, there are exceptions since China (and you can argue most of Asia) is still somewhat racist. If your children do no look "Chinese", they will not be considered as chinese.

guscost 14y ago
In all fairness, many Europeans (and Americans, of course) are "somewhat racist" too.
- jerf 14y ago
  The word is "human".
- chaostheory 14y ago
  I feel there's a big difference when you compare the US to either Europe or Asia as a whole: we are very open about it and our failings with it. It's in our consciousness to work hard to fight against it. I think Europe is getting there with this frame of mind, but I don't feel that Asia even pretends to try.
  - guscost 14y ago
    I might agree with you, but I still think that declaring it outright might provoke the old "arrogant American" reaction.
286c8cb04bda 14y ago
> This is not true for all social levels of China. I somewhat disagree. That type of "reverse genocide" only works in East Asia. One of the reasons for the ongoing conflict in Xinjiang is that the local Uyghur, Kyrgyz, et al. don't look Chinese and don't pay any lip service to the "superiority" of Han culture. > If your children do no look "Chinese", they will not be considered as chinese. And this is the reason why. Even though their mother is 100% Han, my own children easily pass as average WASPs. No matter how long they live in China, no matter how fluent they are in Mandarin, they will never be accepted as Chinese by anyone other than her relatives.
- chaostheory 14y ago
  I'm confused. You "disagree", yet I don't see anything that really disagrees from my post. > One of the reasons for the ongoing conflict in Xinjiang is that the local Uyghur, Kyrgyz, et al. don't look Chinese and don't pay any lip service to the "superiority" of Han culture. If Han Chinese ever start intermarrying with Uyghurs in greater numbers this will change. Given the ratio of males to females in the mainland, I would guess that this will happen way before a sexual revolution in China (which the lack of imo is the reason for the gender population gap). I feel that this is the same reason that Han chinese started to intermarry with both Mongols and Tibetans. > Even though their mother is 100% Han, my own children easily pass as average WASPs. Not all Happas pass as WASPs. A lot of my cousins can pass as Han. This guy is another example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Locke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Locke

colmvp 14y ago

Whereas most Asian men in Western countries get rejected by Caucasian females for not being Caucasian. (Source: OkCupid studies, anecdotes, Quora, etc.)

cromwellian 14y ago
That seems to be a trend which is improving however (more Asian Male/Caucasian Female couples) At least in California among professionals.
- Jd 14y ago
  Are there statistics that indicate the situation is improving? I'm not in Cali anymore but have Asian american male friends who like Caucasian women that would be interested in this.
  - cromwellian 14y ago
    I don't have any statistics, just anecdotes. I've just noticed an uptick in AM/WF couples. My neighbors across the screen. My friend who just got married. People I see at work. Without being too cynical, I attribute this to a natural outgrowth of the economic success of AMs, the rising tides in Asia, and more and more AMs appearing in media. (e.g. Daniel Dae Kim in Lost) Let's be honest, men's romantic liberty in choosing mates is often proportional to economic success. It all started with Russell Wong and the Noxema Girl in "Vanishing Son" :)
    - lamby 14y ago
      > Let's be honest, men's romantic liberty in choosing mates is often proportional to economic success. Possibly the kindest way I've ever seen that phrased.
xiaoma 14y ago
This whole, "oh the west is just as bad" troupe needs to die. But if they do have children, they don't have to endure this: http://www.chinasmack.com/2009/stories/shanghai-black-girl-lou-jing-racist-chinese-netizens.html http://www.chinasmack.com/2009/stories/shanghai-black-girl-l... Can you even imagine a "mixed" kid who grew up entirely in the US being cussed out by well over half the commenters on a talent show, and for even the kids mother to be attacked relentlessly for being with a man of a different color? The WSJ link doesn't even get into the worst of it. You should have seen the weibo comments on Lou Jing.

msabalau 14y ago

Of course, that we speak of "the British" is a testament to a certain level of success of melding English/Scottish/Welsh identities, much of which happened in the context of imperial endeavor. And certainly many other groups (Sepoys, say) found their interests aligned at times with the imperial project, in a way that outweighed their ethnic background. Being open to a flexible interpretation of identity/citzenship (Brits, Romans) or having a nominally universal ideology/religion (Americans, Islamic caliphates) seems like it be a large help in successful world leadership, even if it's not a prerequisite.

Jd 14y ago
Granted. My own personal take is that you need to be very aware of the substrate (which includes genetics, ethnicity, religion, geography, available resources, etc.) and have a vision that is greater than the substrate. The problem with American empire at the present moment, in my very strongly held opinion, is that we are denying the impact of the substrate and launching into "economic-magic" which is very detached from value of any kind -- with the strong risk of impaling not only our own traditional strengths (goodbye American car companies) but the rest of the world economy with it. Along these lines, I wish the Chinese all the best for producing things things well that we care about and buy -- this is esp. true of Taiwan, which has retained some measure of traditional positive values that are not entirely materialistic, and I have some optimism that the not longer particularly Communist part can develop in a not especially materialistic direction. As for America, I think we need a miracle.
swampthing 14y ago
There's far more than 3 identities wrapped up in "the Chinese".
Apocryphon 14y ago
I find this interesting, because Chinese identity, as much as it is tied to Han ethnicity, seems to be something that could include once-outsiders, as long as they assimilate into it. The OP itself cites how the Mongol invaders established the Yuan dynasty, and the Manchu did the same with the Qing. Despite there is always a separation between Han and non-Han, I've found that the traditional (pre-20th century?) idea of "Chinese" is more tied to cultural traditions and the Confucian ethos, than ethnic/racial divisions. In some ways it's almost comparable to the concept of being "American" as in from the U.S., though of course far less malleable and open to including outside traditions. Consider the mythological origins of the Han: http://knowledgechina.blogspot.com/2010/02/origin-of-chinese.html http://knowledgechina.blogspot.com/2010/02/origin-of-chinese... "3000 years before the Han dynasty, when what we call China today was inhabited by various tribes, the mythical ancestors of the Han, the Huaxia, controlled swathes of land centered around the Yellow River. According to legend, the leader of the Huaxia, Huangdi, defeated the 4 surrounding tribes, to the North, South, East, and West of Huaxia and incorporated their people and territory. The 4 leaders of those tribes, along with Huangdi became known as the 5 Emperors. Legends also tell of Huangdi defeating and assimilate the tribe of Yandi. Together, Huangdi and Yandi have been viewed as the progenitors of the Han race, which refers to itself as 'descendants of yan and huang'." Even from the beginning, the Chinese came from the intermingling of multiple peoples, not one specific race. So I think the identity of "Chinese" can certainly be more cultural than ethnic/racial, and so open to outsiders who self-assimilate. The questions are, what is Chinese culture in modernity? And if traditionalist Confucianism makes some sort of comeback, how will the world outside China react to it? Oh, and how do current Western/non-Chinese expats in China assimilate to local Confucian norms?