5 ms·

Free speech including paid speech isn’t really a knock on free speech. Someone can be persuaded by an argument they heard once, but can’t per persuaded by an a

by Retric 2y ago

Free speech including paid speech isn’t really a knock on free speech. Someone can be persuaded by an argument they heard once, but can’t per persuaded by an argument they never hear. Thus blocking speech by preventing any kind of speech including paid speech is problematic.

baq 2y ago
I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.
- Retric 2y ago
  Having outside actors in the conversation is a strength.
  - monetus 2y ago
    The contention is that they in particular aren't good faith actors unlike other outside actors, iiuc.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Bad faith actors are also beneficial. Kids who grow up watching commercials start distrusting them. Free speech is not about any one issue but all topics. In many ways curating so people see the kinds of things they agree with is vastly more harmful than propaganda.
      - Braxton1980 2y ago
        What happens when people are tol 1. Don't trust the media 2. Don't trust the opposition 3. Don't trust the experts Doesn't this lead to a situation where only bad actors exist? It people are so savy because of advertising why did tens of millions believe the election was stolen?
        Retric 2y ago
        > What happens when people are… Everyone doesn’t fit those criteria. Motivated reasoning exists with and without propaganda. The specific words used may end up mimicking “a message,” but you can find millions of disgruntled people after any election. There’s a great deal of talk around how much social media etc changed the landscape but American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        >American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook. Trump and MAGA Republicans lie more openly than traditional Republicans. American politics are not the same. Here's an easy exercise. This is a post from MGT. Show me anything even close to this insane from an elected person in high office (house, senate, president) in the last 50 years https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/static/D8Image/2021/01/27/marjorietaylorgreene-campfire.png?itok=NbipA3UY https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/st...
        Retric 2y ago
        That’s fairly mild, but it’s not so easy to link to 20+ year old clips. There’s some real bangers of homophobic rants in your time frame, but you may be a little young to remember any of them. In terms of lies here’s one that was a central tenant of the part of the party line for decades. Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement >Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax. SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true
        Retric 2y ago
      - goatlover 2y ago
        I no longer believe this, seeing how democracy is under threat around the world from such abuses of free speech.
        ghssds 2y ago
        Free speech is an essential component of democracy.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        1.The majority of people are not intelligent. Source is polls on whether there was wide spread election fraud 2. Politicans want money and power. They have no issues lying or manipulating people to get it 3. In a country like Russia the government can counter any information with widespread arrests and fear. 4. In a country with free speech there is little to no recourse. Meaning that Russia, China, etc can use misinformation against us and we can't do anything. On the other hand we can try the same but they can simply use authoritarian tactics to supress it. 5. Trump has shown that the threshold for lying was set artificially low by past politicians. His success while lying about events that are easily disproven multiple times is evidence for all future politicians to lie.
        Retric 2y ago
        “The number of people overall who believe the election was fraudulent has hovered around 35% since November 2020, but this percentage has not increased significantly as the claim purports.” https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-image/no-most-americans-dont-believe-2020-election-was-f/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-imag... Which is different than asking if voting fraud changed the outcome and more importantly different than asking which side benefited. Someone who calls targeted overly aggressive culling of voter registrations fraud has something of a point, even if that’s a long way from stuffing ballots or meaningful changes in results.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
  - baq 2y ago
    They are noise generators with a goal of raising the noise floor above the pain threshold, in essence they’re using free speech to shut down free speech itself.
    - Retric 2y ago
      I’d say the same about social media. However IMO the value of free speech isn’t in having a clear message to directly improve things, the value is being able to steal ideas from anyone. “Obamacare” was originally a Republican idea, but once an idea is out there anyone can take it. Ideas don’t need to win on day one, if it takes 30 years that’s still plenty useful.

by Retric 2y ago

baq 2y ago

I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.

Retric 2y ago
Having outside actors in the conversation is a strength.
- monetus 2y ago
  The contention is that they in particular aren't good faith actors unlike other outside actors, iiuc.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Bad faith actors are also beneficial. Kids who grow up watching commercials start distrusting them. Free speech is not about any one issue but all topics. In many ways curating so people see the kinds of things they agree with is vastly more harmful than propaganda.
    - Braxton1980 2y ago
      What happens when people are tol 1. Don't trust the media 2. Don't trust the opposition 3. Don't trust the experts Doesn't this lead to a situation where only bad actors exist? It people are so savy because of advertising why did tens of millions believe the election was stolen?
      - Retric 2y ago
        > What happens when people are… Everyone doesn’t fit those criteria. Motivated reasoning exists with and without propaganda. The specific words used may end up mimicking “a message,” but you can find millions of disgruntled people after any election. There’s a great deal of talk around how much social media etc changed the landscape but American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        >American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook. Trump and MAGA Republicans lie more openly than traditional Republicans. American politics are not the same. Here's an easy exercise. This is a post from MGT. Show me anything even close to this insane from an elected person in high office (house, senate, president) in the last 50 years https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/static/D8Image/2021/01/27/marjorietaylorgreene-campfire.png?itok=NbipA3UY https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/st...
        Retric 2y ago
        That’s fairly mild, but it’s not so easy to link to 20+ year old clips. There’s some real bangers of homophobic rants in your time frame, but you may be a little young to remember any of them. In terms of lies here’s one that was a central tenant of the part of the party line for decades. Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement >Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax. SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true
        Retric 2y ago
    - goatlover 2y ago
      I no longer believe this, seeing how democracy is under threat around the world from such abuses of free speech.
      - ghssds 2y ago
        Free speech is an essential component of democracy.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        1.The majority of people are not intelligent. Source is polls on whether there was wide spread election fraud 2. Politicans want money and power. They have no issues lying or manipulating people to get it 3. In a country like Russia the government can counter any information with widespread arrests and fear. 4. In a country with free speech there is little to no recourse. Meaning that Russia, China, etc can use misinformation against us and we can't do anything. On the other hand we can try the same but they can simply use authoritarian tactics to supress it. 5. Trump has shown that the threshold for lying was set artificially low by past politicians. His success while lying about events that are easily disproven multiple times is evidence for all future politicians to lie.
        Retric 2y ago
        “The number of people overall who believe the election was fraudulent has hovered around 35% since November 2020, but this percentage has not increased significantly as the claim purports.” https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-image/no-most-americans-dont-believe-2020-election-was-f/ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-imag... Which is different than asking if voting fraud changed the outcome and more importantly different than asking which side benefited. Someone who calls targeted overly aggressive culling of voter registrations fraud has something of a point, even if that’s a long way from stuffing ballots or meaningful changes in results.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
- baq 2y ago
  They are noise generators with a goal of raising the noise floor above the pain threshold, in essence they’re using free speech to shut down free speech itself.
  - Retric 2y ago
    I’d say the same about social media. However IMO the value of free speech isn’t in having a clear message to directly improve things, the value is being able to steal ideas from anyone. “Obamacare” was originally a Republican idea, but once an idea is out there anyone can take it. Ideas don’t need to win on day one, if it takes 30 years that’s still plenty useful.