5 ms·

>A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures As opposed to non-free-speech cultures like Russia and China where people have absolut

>A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures As opposed to non-free-speech cultures like Russia and China where people have absolutely no say in whatever their leaders do? Because that's inevitably what happens when you give people in power the power to restrict speech: they restrict any speech critical of them. We're even seeing this in developed democracies like Germany where a journalist was recently fined for posting a meme online of a politician holding a sign saying "I hate free speech".

baq 2y ago
Whataboutism does not change anything about it being a weak spot. I’m only saying the free speech west can’t use the same tactic against these kind of adversaries because they’re insulated against them.
- Retric 2y ago
  Free speech including paid speech isn’t really a knock on free speech. Someone can be persuaded by an argument they heard once, but can’t per persuaded by an argument they never hear. Thus blocking speech by preventing any kind of speech including paid speech is problematic.
  - baq 2y ago
    I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Having outside actors in the conversation is a strength.
      - monetus 2y ago
        The contention is that they in particular aren't good faith actors unlike other outside actors, iiuc.
        Retric 2y ago
        Bad faith actors are also beneficial. Kids who grow up watching commercials start distrusting them. Free speech is not about any one issue but all topics. In many ways curating so people see the kinds of things they agree with is vastly more harmful than propaganda.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        What happens when people are tol 1. Don't trust the media 2. Don't trust the opposition 3. Don't trust the experts Doesn't this lead to a situation where only bad actors exist? It people are so savy because of advertising why did tens of millions believe the election was stolen?
        Retric 2y ago
        > What happens when people are… Everyone doesn’t fit those criteria. Motivated reasoning exists with and without propaganda. The specific words used may end up mimicking “a message,” but you can find millions of disgruntled people after any election. There’s a great deal of talk around how much social media etc changed the landscape but American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        >American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook. Trump and MAGA Republicans lie more openly than traditional Republicans. American politics are not the same. Here's an easy exercise. This is a post from MGT. Show me anything even close to this insane from an elected person in high office (house, senate, president) in the last 50 years https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/static/D8Image/2021/01/27/marjorietaylorgreene-campfire.png?itok=NbipA3UY https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/st...
      - baq 2y ago
        They are noise generators with a goal of raising the noise floor above the pain threshold, in essence they’re using free speech to shut down free speech itself.
        Retric 2y ago
        I’d say the same about social media. However IMO the value of free speech isn’t in having a clear message to directly improve things, the value is being able to steal ideas from anyone. “Obamacare” was originally a Republican idea, but once an idea is out there anyone can take it. Ideas don’t need to win on day one, if it takes 30 years that’s still plenty useful.
netrus 2y ago
It's important to be precise because everything is not the same. In the German case the ruling was not because someone posted a critical meme, but because it was not entirely obvious the picture was edited (as in: you and I can immediately see the photo was edited, but some people will not recognize the edit). I do not agree with the ruling, but as a citizen I am happy that in Germany we still care if claims are true or not (and try to prevent people from lying).
- Whoppertime 2y ago
  Isn't that just relying on the stupidity of someone who may not exist? Like every single year people make the same dumb joke "Republicans vote on Tuesday and Democrats vote on Wednesday" leading to prosecution for misinformation when they cannot prove anyone actually tried voting on the wrong day because of the meme
  - Retric 2y ago
    Once you start talking millions of people someone will make that or any other mistake. The US has a higher threshold, but it’s clear those standards mean many people are duped by “obvious” lies. It’s kind of an arbitrary line, but ignoring the dumb feels like a mistake to me when dumb people are active in society, still vote, etc.
  - Braxton1980 2y ago
    Misinformation isnt
- immibis 2y ago
  Does this happiness that some people care whether claims are true or not overrule the arrest and deportation of peaceful protestors, and people in general based on social media posts, or do you also feel happy about that?

baq 2y ago

Whataboutism does not change anything about it being a weak spot. I’m only saying the free speech west can’t use the same tactic against these kind of adversaries because they’re insulated against them.

Retric 2y ago
Free speech including paid speech isn’t really a knock on free speech. Someone can be persuaded by an argument they heard once, but can’t per persuaded by an argument they never hear. Thus blocking speech by preventing any kind of speech including paid speech is problematic.
- baq 2y ago
  I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.
  - Retric 2y ago
    Having outside actors in the conversation is a strength.
    - monetus 2y ago
      The contention is that they in particular aren't good faith actors unlike other outside actors, iiuc.
      - Retric 2y ago
        Bad faith actors are also beneficial. Kids who grow up watching commercials start distrusting them. Free speech is not about any one issue but all topics. In many ways curating so people see the kinds of things they agree with is vastly more harmful than propaganda.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        What happens when people are tol 1. Don't trust the media 2. Don't trust the opposition 3. Don't trust the experts Doesn't this lead to a situation where only bad actors exist? It people are so savy because of advertising why did tens of millions believe the election was stolen?
        Retric 2y ago
        > What happens when people are… Everyone doesn’t fit those criteria. Motivated reasoning exists with and without propaganda. The specific words used may end up mimicking “a message,” but you can find millions of disgruntled people after any election. There’s a great deal of talk around how much social media etc changed the landscape but American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        >American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook. Trump and MAGA Republicans lie more openly than traditional Republicans. American politics are not the same. Here's an easy exercise. This is a post from MGT. Show me anything even close to this insane from an elected person in high office (house, senate, president) in the last 50 years https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/static/D8Image/2021/01/27/marjorietaylorgreene-campfire.png?itok=NbipA3UY https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/st...
    - baq 2y ago
      They are noise generators with a goal of raising the noise floor above the pain threshold, in essence they’re using free speech to shut down free speech itself.
      - Retric 2y ago
        I’d say the same about social media. However IMO the value of free speech isn’t in having a clear message to directly improve things, the value is being able to steal ideas from anyone. “Obamacare” was originally a Republican idea, but once an idea is out there anyone can take it. Ideas don’t need to win on day one, if it takes 30 years that’s still plenty useful.

netrus 2y ago

It's important to be precise because everything is not the same. In the German case the ruling was not because someone posted a critical meme, but because it was not entirely obvious the picture was edited (as in: you and I can immediately see the photo was edited, but some people will not recognize the edit). I do not agree with the ruling, but as a citizen I am happy that in Germany we still care if claims are true or not (and try to prevent people from lying).

Whoppertime 2y ago
Isn't that just relying on the stupidity of someone who may not exist? Like every single year people make the same dumb joke "Republicans vote on Tuesday and Democrats vote on Wednesday" leading to prosecution for misinformation when they cannot prove anyone actually tried voting on the wrong day because of the meme
- Retric 2y ago
  Once you start talking millions of people someone will make that or any other mistake. The US has a higher threshold, but it’s clear those standards mean many people are duped by “obvious” lies. It’s kind of an arbitrary line, but ignoring the dumb feels like a mistake to me when dumb people are active in society, still vote, etc.
- Braxton1980 2y ago
  Misinformation isnt
immibis 2y ago
Does this happiness that some people care whether claims are true or not overrule the arrest and deportation of peaceful protestors, and people in general based on social media posts, or do you also feel happy about that?