8 ms·

Exactly, it's the "they're the same anyway", "both sides" equivalency that allows the buildup of antidemocratic de-politicization and apathy. This is one of the

by kurthr 2y ago

Exactly, it's the "they're the same anyway", "both sides" equivalency that allows the buildup of antidemocratic de-politicization and apathy. This is one of the goals of the _there_is_no_truth_ radicalization that is fundamental to Russian political control

raverbashing 2y ago
This exactly right here ^ But discussions on the internet seems to be with lots of people who have only a shallow understanding of the balances involved and low historical context
- Braxton1980 2y ago
  Historical context has limited value. It doesn't matter what a political party did more than 10 years ago. Shallow understanding is a valid issue but that's what discussions are for
  - goatlover 2y ago
    It matters if the political party's tactics for taking over a democracy are being copied.
Retric 2y ago
Ehh, I’ve got not particular stake in this conflict so it’s really interesting to see how each side is using propaganda and how obvious the propaganda is when you’re not emotionally invested. Each side is using different tactics to fit the strength of their positions and how well various messages resonate. “They are the same anyway” is useful for a side who wants people to be inactive, it’s not some universal benefit to both parties. Instead each side wants different people to be engaged vs apathetic, which hardly unusual.
- baq 2y ago
  Both sides want their side engaged and the other apathetic. On a national level this means FSB employing hundreds if not thousands of people to troll political discourse in social media in the west to maximize the amount of ‘I don’t care anymore’ people. A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures.
  - logicchains 2y ago
    >A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures As opposed to non-free-speech cultures like Russia and China where people have absolutely no say in whatever their leaders do? Because that's inevitably what happens when you give people in power the power to restrict speech: they restrict any speech critical of them. We're even seeing this in developed democracies like Germany where a journalist was recently fined for posting a meme online of a politician holding a sign saying "I hate free speech".
    - baq 2y ago
      Whataboutism does not change anything about it being a weak spot. I’m only saying the free speech west can’t use the same tactic against these kind of adversaries because they’re insulated against them.
      - Retric 2y ago
        Free speech including paid speech isn’t really a knock on free speech. Someone can be persuaded by an argument they heard once, but can’t per persuaded by an argument they never hear. Thus blocking speech by preventing any kind of speech including paid speech is problematic.
        baq 2y ago
        I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.
        2y ago
- Braxton1980 2y ago
  Are both sides doing all these things in equal amounts?
  - Retric 2y ago
    No, they don’t have the same strengths but the net effect is similar.
    - Braxton1980 2y ago
      How can the net effect be similar if the actions aren't?
      - Retric 2y ago
        Their goals are similar. There’s lots of different ways of achieving similar ends. I’ve seen a lot more paid commercials from Israel side, but a lot more posts using Palestine’s side talking points. Same way you can build a wood or brick home, historically which people chose had a lot to do with local materials.
        Braxton1980 2y ago
        >Their goals are similar. This isn't then your previous comment that the results are similar. Goals aren't nearly as important as results. Also, to dive deeper, what goals and how many are similar, and how similar? If you mean they are both supporting Israel, then yes, but the Democrats exert more control over their actions. For example Biden was limiting the bomb size that Israel could purchase and Trump removed that. So if you want to help the Palestinians one side is the better than the other. It doesn't matter if the goals are similar or even the results. There's still a difference and as you can see voter apathy only helped Republicans
        Retric 2y ago
        > If you mean they are both supporting Israel I have been talking about the propaganda from each sides of the current conflict in Palestine. I thought this make that clear “in this conflict so it’s really interesting to see how each side is using propaganda” but I may have misunderstood what you meant by supporting Israel. > This isn't then your previous comment that the results are similar. To be clear I’m noticing similar goals combined with something (diminishing returns?) yield similar results. Hell, it could also be a form follows function kind of thing, I’m noticing the results not doing a research paper. > what goals When I say they have similar goals I mean they are both trying to sway public option to support their agenda. There’s a bunch of different kinds of kind of propaganda. If one side was doing a call to action for their supporters like “Buy war bonds!” then I presume the results wouldn’t seem so similar.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by kurthr 2y ago

raverbashing 2y ago

This exactly right here ^ But discussions on the internet seems to be with lots of people who have only a shallow understanding of the balances involved and low historical context

Braxton1980 2y ago
Historical context has limited value. It doesn't matter what a political party did more than 10 years ago. Shallow understanding is a valid issue but that's what discussions are for
- goatlover 2y ago
  It matters if the political party's tactics for taking over a democracy are being copied.

Retric 2y ago

Ehh, I’ve got not particular stake in this conflict so it’s really interesting to see how each side is using propaganda and how obvious the propaganda is when you’re not emotionally invested. Each side is using different tactics to fit the strength of their positions and how well various messages resonate. “They are the same anyway” is useful for a side who wants people to be inactive, it’s not some universal benefit to both parties. Instead each side wants different people to be engaged vs apathetic, which hardly unusual.

baq 2y ago
Both sides want their side engaged and the other apathetic. On a national level this means FSB employing hundreds if not thousands of people to troll political discourse in social media in the west to maximize the amount of ‘I don’t care anymore’ people. A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures.
- logicchains 2y ago
  >A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures As opposed to non-free-speech cultures like Russia and China where people have absolutely no say in whatever their leaders do? Because that's inevitably what happens when you give people in power the power to restrict speech: they restrict any speech critical of them. We're even seeing this in developed democracies like Germany where a journalist was recently fined for posting a meme online of a politician holding a sign saying "I hate free speech".
  - baq 2y ago
    Whataboutism does not change anything about it being a weak spot. I’m only saying the free speech west can’t use the same tactic against these kind of adversaries because they’re insulated against them.
    - Retric 2y ago
      Free speech including paid speech isn’t really a knock on free speech. Someone can be persuaded by an argument they heard once, but can’t per persuaded by an argument they never hear. Thus blocking speech by preventing any kind of speech including paid speech is problematic.
      - baq 2y ago
        I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.
        2y ago
Braxton1980 2y ago
Are both sides doing all these things in equal amounts?
- Retric 2y ago
  No, they don’t have the same strengths but the net effect is similar.
  - Braxton1980 2y ago
    How can the net effect be similar if the actions aren't?
    - Retric 2y ago
      Their goals are similar. There’s lots of different ways of achieving similar ends. I’ve seen a lot more paid commercials from Israel side, but a lot more posts using Palestine’s side talking points. Same way you can build a wood or brick home, historically which people chose had a lot to do with local materials.
      - Braxton1980 2y ago
        >Their goals are similar. This isn't then your previous comment that the results are similar. Goals aren't nearly as important as results. Also, to dive deeper, what goals and how many are similar, and how similar? If you mean they are both supporting Israel, then yes, but the Democrats exert more control over their actions. For example Biden was limiting the bomb size that Israel could purchase and Trump removed that. So if you want to help the Palestinians one side is the better than the other. It doesn't matter if the goals are similar or even the results. There's still a difference and as you can see voter apathy only helped Republicans
        Retric 2y ago
        > If you mean they are both supporting Israel I have been talking about the propaganda from each sides of the current conflict in Palestine. I thought this make that clear “in this conflict so it’s really interesting to see how each side is using propaganda” but I may have misunderstood what you meant by supporting Israel. > This isn't then your previous comment that the results are similar. To be clear I’m noticing similar goals combined with something (diminishing returns?) yield similar results. Hell, it could also be a form follows function kind of thing, I’m noticing the results not doing a research paper. > what goals When I say they have similar goals I mean they are both trying to sway public option to support their agenda. There’s a bunch of different kinds of kind of propaganda. If one side was doing a call to action for their supporters like “Buy war bonds!” then I presume the results wouldn’t seem so similar.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]