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My original comment was about the commenter I replied to saying: > To my knowledge, video stream requests chunks by range and is largely client controlled. It

My original comment was about the commenter I replied to saying: > To my knowledge, video stream requests chunks by range and is largely client controlled. It isn't a single, long lived http connection. Wouldn't a byte range request for the whole file fall under the "single, long lived http connection"? Sure it could be terminated early and another request made for seeking, but regardless the video can start before the whole file is downloaded, assuming it's encoded correctly?

tedunangst 2y ago
The client doesn't want to eat the whole file, so it uses a range request for just the beginning of the file, and then the next part as needed.
- koakuma-chan 2y ago
  The client would actually request the whole file and then terminate the request if the file is no longer needed. This is what browsers do at least.
  - lxgr 2y ago
    Both are possible, and in fact I could imagine not all servers being too happy with having to trickle data over a persistent HTTP connection through the entire length of the video, with an almost always full TCP send buffer at the OS level.
    - koakuma-chan 2y ago
      > Both are possible It is possible if you are in control of the client, but no browser would stream an mp4 file request by request. > with an almost always full TCP send buffer at the OS level This shouldn't be a problem because there is flow control. Also the data would probably be sent to the kernel in small chunks, not the whole file at once.
      - lxgr 2y ago
        > It is possible if you are in control of the client, but no browser would stream an mp4 file request by request. I believe most browsers do it like that, these days: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Media/Guides/Audio_and_video_delivery/buffering_seeking_time_ranges https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Media/Guides/Au... > This shouldn't be a problem because there is flow control. It's leveraging flow control, but as I mentioned this might be less efficient (in terms of server memory usage and concurrent open connections, depending on client buffer size and other variables) than downloading larger chunks and closing the HTTP connection in between them. Many wireless protocols also prefer large, infrequent bursts of transmissions over a constant trickle.
        koakuma-chan 2y ago
        > I believe most browsers do it like that, these days Nope. Browsers send a byte range request for the whole file (`0-`), and the correspoding time range grows as the file is being downloaded. If the user decided to seek to a different part of the file, say at byte offset 10_000, the browser would send a second byte range request, this time `10000-` and a second time range would be created (if this part of the file has not already been downloaded). So there is no evidence there that any browser would stream files in small chunks, request by request. > in terms of server memory usage It's not less efficient in terms of memory usage because the server wouldn't read more data from the filesystem than it can send with respect to the flow control. > concurrent open connections Maybe if you're on HTTP/1, but we live in the age of HTTP/2-3. > Many wireless protocols also prefer large, infrequent bursts of transmissions over a constant trickle. AFAIK browsers don't throttle download speed, if that's what you mean.
        lxgr 1y ago
        Ah, interesting, I must have mixed it up/looked at range request based HLS playlists in the past. Thank you! > AFAIK browsers don't throttle download speed, if that's what you mean. Yeah, I suppose by implementing a relatively large client-application-side buffer and reading from that in larger chunks rather than as small as the media codec allows, the same outcome can be achieved. Reading e.g. one MP3 frame at a time from the TCP buffer would effectively throttle the download, limited only by Nagle's Algorithm, but that's probably still much too small to be efficient for radios that prefer to sleep most of the time and then receive large bursts of data.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    Are you sure browsers would try to download an entire, say, 10h video file instead of just some chunks of it?
    - koakuma-chan 2y ago
      Common sense tells me there should be some kind of limit, but I don't know what it is, whether it's standardized and whether it exists. I just tested and Firefox _buffered_ (according to the time range) the first 27_000~ seconds, but in the dev tools the request appeared as though still loading. Chrome downloaded the first 10.2 MB (according to dev tools) and stopped (but meanwhile the time range was growing from zero approximately by one second every second, even though the browser already stopped downloading). After it played for a bit, Chrome downloaded 2.6 more MB _using the same request_. In both cases the browser requested the whole file, but not necessarily downloaded the whole file.
koakuma-chan 2y ago
> Wouldn't a byte range request for the whole file fall under the "single, long lived http connection"? Yes, it would (though a better description would be "a single, long lived http request" because this doesn't have anything to do with connections), and wewewedxfgdf also replied Yes. > Sure it could be terminated early and another request made for seeking, but regardless the video can start before the whole file is downloaded, assuming it's encoded correctly? Yes.

tedunangst 2y ago

The client doesn't want to eat the whole file, so it uses a range request for just the beginning of the file, and then the next part as needed.

koakuma-chan 2y ago
The client would actually request the whole file and then terminate the request if the file is no longer needed. This is what browsers do at least.
- lxgr 2y ago
  Both are possible, and in fact I could imagine not all servers being too happy with having to trickle data over a persistent HTTP connection through the entire length of the video, with an almost always full TCP send buffer at the OS level.
  - koakuma-chan 2y ago
    > Both are possible It is possible if you are in control of the client, but no browser would stream an mp4 file request by request. > with an almost always full TCP send buffer at the OS level This shouldn't be a problem because there is flow control. Also the data would probably be sent to the kernel in small chunks, not the whole file at once.
    - lxgr 2y ago
      > It is possible if you are in control of the client, but no browser would stream an mp4 file request by request. I believe most browsers do it like that, these days: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Media/Guides/Audio_and_video_delivery/buffering_seeking_time_ranges https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Media/Guides/Au... > This shouldn't be a problem because there is flow control. It's leveraging flow control, but as I mentioned this might be less efficient (in terms of server memory usage and concurrent open connections, depending on client buffer size and other variables) than downloading larger chunks and closing the HTTP connection in between them. Many wireless protocols also prefer large, infrequent bursts of transmissions over a constant trickle.
      - koakuma-chan 2y ago
        > I believe most browsers do it like that, these days Nope. Browsers send a byte range request for the whole file (`0-`), and the correspoding time range grows as the file is being downloaded. If the user decided to seek to a different part of the file, say at byte offset 10_000, the browser would send a second byte range request, this time `10000-` and a second time range would be created (if this part of the file has not already been downloaded). So there is no evidence there that any browser would stream files in small chunks, request by request. > in terms of server memory usage It's not less efficient in terms of memory usage because the server wouldn't read more data from the filesystem than it can send with respect to the flow control. > concurrent open connections Maybe if you're on HTTP/1, but we live in the age of HTTP/2-3. > Many wireless protocols also prefer large, infrequent bursts of transmissions over a constant trickle. AFAIK browsers don't throttle download speed, if that's what you mean.
        lxgr 1y ago
        Ah, interesting, I must have mixed it up/looked at range request based HLS playlists in the past. Thank you! > AFAIK browsers don't throttle download speed, if that's what you mean. Yeah, I suppose by implementing a relatively large client-application-side buffer and reading from that in larger chunks rather than as small as the media codec allows, the same outcome can be achieved. Reading e.g. one MP3 frame at a time from the TCP buffer would effectively throttle the download, limited only by Nagle's Algorithm, but that's probably still much too small to be efficient for radios that prefer to sleep most of the time and then receive large bursts of data.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  Are you sure browsers would try to download an entire, say, 10h video file instead of just some chunks of it?
  - koakuma-chan 2y ago
    Common sense tells me there should be some kind of limit, but I don't know what it is, whether it's standardized and whether it exists. I just tested and Firefox _buffered_ (according to the time range) the first 27_000~ seconds, but in the dev tools the request appeared as though still loading. Chrome downloaded the first 10.2 MB (according to dev tools) and stopped (but meanwhile the time range was growing from zero approximately by one second every second, even though the browser already stopped downloading). After it played for a bit, Chrome downloaded 2.6 more MB _using the same request_. In both cases the browser requested the whole file, but not necessarily downloaded the whole file.

koakuma-chan 2y ago

> Wouldn't a byte range request for the whole file fall under the "single, long lived http connection"? Yes, it would (though a better description would be "a single, long lived http request" because this doesn't have anything to do with connections), and wewewedxfgdf also replied Yes. > Sure it could be terminated early and another request made for seeking, but regardless the video can start before the whole file is downloaded, assuming it's encoded correctly? Yes.