3 ms·

Still can’t tell time accurately over a long period. The ultimate irony of these collectible expensive watches. I like them anyway out of respect for the engine

Still can’t tell time accurately over a long period. The ultimate irony of these collectible expensive watches. I like them anyway out of respect for the engineering but still.

bslalwn 2y ago
Quartz can’t either :)
- jsheard 2y ago
  I guess it depends on your definition of "long period" but high end Quartz movements can achieve ±1 second per year by using a high frequency, thermally compensated oscillator. Movements with atomic radio control can do even better than that of course, though that's arguably cheating since the heavy lifting happens in a standards lab somewhere rather than on your wrist.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Is that a year of ideal conditions with little to no movement or acceration in standard temp. and pressure conditions, or a year at sea in a barometric rollercoaster with 60 degrees celsius cycling heating and cooling with 2G+ surges of roll, pitch, and yaw? The mechanical marine chronometer challenge is a tough one.
    - jeffbee 2y ago
      A bit LARPy, I would think. The need for ludicrously accurate marine chronometers is doubly obsolete because of the somewhat lessened need for celestial navigation and the fact that the GNSS systems also disseminate the time (in fact, this is the only thing they can do). Even for those obligated to practice celestial navigation, pretty much any old quartz watch will do the job and you can check/set them by WWVB.
      - defrost 2y ago
        It's a genuine question about the conditions under which error bar performance was claimed (by whomever you quoted). > A bit LARPy, I would think. That's all relative - I worked global exploration geophysics for a decade, worked with folk that developed sapphire oscillators for use in gravitational wave detection, dabble with SKA data, etc. What's role play to some is just a job to others.
        TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
        Even the cheapest quartz watches (0.5s/day) are significantly more accurate than a typical Rolex (2s/day) in normal use. I'm having some difficulty understanding how g shocks, temperature variations, and barometric changes will have less of an effect on a fragile mechanical system than a tuned electronic one.
    - dghlsakjg 2y ago
      It depends on the maker, not all quartz watches are equal. However, quartz is typically very stable as an oscillator over the conditions that humans can survive in. That’s why we use it in watches after all. That said, I have used a quartz watch (mid level Citizen) for actual celestial navigation at sea. It is, for all intents and purposes always going to be more accurate than mechanical (mine typically is good for ~1 second per month, and always in the same direction) Certified mechanical watches typically vary more than that in a day, I believe the standard is 2 seconds per day. I don’t know what a proper marine chronometer is certified to, but it is worth pointing out that a marine chronometer is typically not exposed to the conditions you describe at sea. The official ships chronometer is always kept down below, protected in what is effectively a gimballed humidor. For the purposes of navigational measurements, you use your wrist watch at the time of sighting on deck and add or subtract the difference between your watch and the chronometer. To add on to all that, if a ship is rolling and pitching like you describe your chances of an accurate sight are very low. Even in perfect conditions, it is hard to call the exact moment of alignment to within a second. If I placed my quartz watch in the box with the official chronometer, I am perfectly willing to argue that if there is a discrepancy in the times shown, the quartz watch should be trusted.
      - defrost 2y ago
        > To add on to all that, if a ship is rolling and pitching like you describe your chances of an accurate sight are very low You as a human wouldn't shoot a line in those conditions, no. The point is that mechanical clock mechanisms endure those conditions .. the rise and fall of tempreture, the rise and fall of air pressure, the shock of acceleration (even when sharply reduced by a gimbal mount). The error bar over months at sea is the tension betwen the drift effect of all those conditions and normalising complications - gimbal mounts, the use of bimetallic strips to counter tempreture change expansions, etc. In dead calm conditions a mechanical clock at sea carries the accumulated drift baggage of past storms and heatwaves. Circling back to quartz oscillators, my question above goes to prompting others to ask themselves if an electronic oscillator regulated by a quartz crystal shows any performance differences over a year when harsh real world physical usage conditions are compared to ideal controlled test conditions. Does temperature affect the oscillator, does humidty, air pressure, accumulated shock forces, etc. Addendum: I cant imagine why an instrument that is ~40x less precise would offer more precise timekeeping ~ @dghlsakjg I'm having some difficulty understanding how [..] will have less of an effect on a fragile mechanical system than a tuned electronic one. ~ @TheOtherHobbes I've reread both my comments above and I'm having some difficulty seeing they can be read to take away a claim that a mechanical marine clock is more accurate than a quartz timekeeping mechanism. Both comments address accuracy in harsh variable conditions versus stable STP lab conditions. See also: Precision vs. Accuracy - https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringourfluidearth/physical/world-ocean/map-distortion/practices-science-precision-vs-accuracy https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringourfluidearth/physical/wor...
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    All electronic oscillator watches are ultimately limited in this competition by the fact that their batteries will run out.
    - jsheard 2y ago
      Unless it's a Citizen Cal.0100, which is good to ±1 second per year and solar powered. Just don't leave it in a dark drawer for too long :)
      - user3939382 2y ago
        The solar batteries have a max discharge cycle too though.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - KaiserPro 2y ago
    Only citizen can achieve that. There are some watches that use external time references to achieve that level of accuracy. Most are +-5 or 10 seconds a year. The problem for me is the citizen isn’t that pretty to my eyes.
DennisP 2y ago
Achieving the accuracy they do, with just mechanical parts powered by a spring, seems reasonably impressive to me. It's basically the same technology that John Harrison used to win the Longitude Prize in the 1700s, revolutionizing navigation on the high seas.
- jsheard 2y ago
  That said, John Harrison didn't have access to Solidworks and 6-axis CNC machines like today's high horology brands do. The final product may still be fully mechanical but the process of getting there has advanced a bit.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > That said, John Harrison didn't have access to Solidworks and 6-axis CNC machines like today's high horology brands do. When you get into some of these luxury brands they pride themselves on not using CNC machines. See for example "Machining a 0.6 mm Screw": * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKVqLTzh_z4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKVqLTzh_z4
  - DennisP 2y ago
    They also didn't have the materials we use for springs, or some of the mechanisms we use. The fact that these devices are the same basic tech from the 1700s, while at the same time being much more advanced, is actually part of the appeal for me.
School-Cotton 2y ago
This is sort of like complaining that an expensive dress isn’t very good at protecting the wearer from the elements.
- user3939382 2y ago
  I see your point but this still strikes me as a weak analogy. The purpose of any watch is to accurately tell time more than the purpose of any dress is to protect from the elements.
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    The purpose of cheap clothing is to protect from the elements (and to prevent other people from seeing your naked body). The purpose of a cheap wristwatch is to tell time. The purpose of expensive versions of both of those is divorced from their original meaning.
    - microtherion 2y ago
      As demonstrated, e.g., by Bianca Censori's outfit at the Grammys.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    These are jewellery, and have been for a long time, really since quartz watches became practical.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
guax 2y ago
This one I believe is not the collectible one. I think is the marketing one. Is the concept car of watch world. The LaFerrari that makes people buy the expensive but cheaper Purosangue.

Still can’t tell time accurately over a long period. The ultimate irony of these collectible expensive watches. I like them anyway out of respect for the engineering but still.

bslalwn 2y ago

Quartz can’t either :)

jsheard 2y ago
I guess it depends on your definition of "long period" but high end Quartz movements can achieve ±1 second per year by using a high frequency, thermally compensated oscillator. Movements with atomic radio control can do even better than that of course, though that's arguably cheating since the heavy lifting happens in a standards lab somewhere rather than on your wrist.
- defrost 2y ago
  Is that a year of ideal conditions with little to no movement or acceration in standard temp. and pressure conditions, or a year at sea in a barometric rollercoaster with 60 degrees celsius cycling heating and cooling with 2G+ surges of roll, pitch, and yaw? The mechanical marine chronometer challenge is a tough one.
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    A bit LARPy, I would think. The need for ludicrously accurate marine chronometers is doubly obsolete because of the somewhat lessened need for celestial navigation and the fact that the GNSS systems also disseminate the time (in fact, this is the only thing they can do). Even for those obligated to practice celestial navigation, pretty much any old quartz watch will do the job and you can check/set them by WWVB.
    - defrost 2y ago
      It's a genuine question about the conditions under which error bar performance was claimed (by whomever you quoted). > A bit LARPy, I would think. That's all relative - I worked global exploration geophysics for a decade, worked with folk that developed sapphire oscillators for use in gravitational wave detection, dabble with SKA data, etc. What's role play to some is just a job to others.
      - TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
        Even the cheapest quartz watches (0.5s/day) are significantly more accurate than a typical Rolex (2s/day) in normal use. I'm having some difficulty understanding how g shocks, temperature variations, and barometric changes will have less of an effect on a fragile mechanical system than a tuned electronic one.
  - dghlsakjg 2y ago
    It depends on the maker, not all quartz watches are equal. However, quartz is typically very stable as an oscillator over the conditions that humans can survive in. That’s why we use it in watches after all. That said, I have used a quartz watch (mid level Citizen) for actual celestial navigation at sea. It is, for all intents and purposes always going to be more accurate than mechanical (mine typically is good for ~1 second per month, and always in the same direction) Certified mechanical watches typically vary more than that in a day, I believe the standard is 2 seconds per day. I don’t know what a proper marine chronometer is certified to, but it is worth pointing out that a marine chronometer is typically not exposed to the conditions you describe at sea. The official ships chronometer is always kept down below, protected in what is effectively a gimballed humidor. For the purposes of navigational measurements, you use your wrist watch at the time of sighting on deck and add or subtract the difference between your watch and the chronometer. To add on to all that, if a ship is rolling and pitching like you describe your chances of an accurate sight are very low. Even in perfect conditions, it is hard to call the exact moment of alignment to within a second. If I placed my quartz watch in the box with the official chronometer, I am perfectly willing to argue that if there is a discrepancy in the times shown, the quartz watch should be trusted.
    - defrost 2y ago
      > To add on to all that, if a ship is rolling and pitching like you describe your chances of an accurate sight are very low You as a human wouldn't shoot a line in those conditions, no. The point is that mechanical clock mechanisms endure those conditions .. the rise and fall of tempreture, the rise and fall of air pressure, the shock of acceleration (even when sharply reduced by a gimbal mount). The error bar over months at sea is the tension betwen the drift effect of all those conditions and normalising complications - gimbal mounts, the use of bimetallic strips to counter tempreture change expansions, etc. In dead calm conditions a mechanical clock at sea carries the accumulated drift baggage of past storms and heatwaves. Circling back to quartz oscillators, my question above goes to prompting others to ask themselves if an electronic oscillator regulated by a quartz crystal shows any performance differences over a year when harsh real world physical usage conditions are compared to ideal controlled test conditions. Does temperature affect the oscillator, does humidty, air pressure, accumulated shock forces, etc. Addendum: I cant imagine why an instrument that is ~40x less precise would offer more precise timekeeping ~ @dghlsakjg I'm having some difficulty understanding how [..] will have less of an effect on a fragile mechanical system than a tuned electronic one. ~ @TheOtherHobbes I've reread both my comments above and I'm having some difficulty seeing they can be read to take away a claim that a mechanical marine clock is more accurate than a quartz timekeeping mechanism. Both comments address accuracy in harsh variable conditions versus stable STP lab conditions. See also: Precision vs. Accuracy - https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringourfluidearth/physical/world-ocean/map-distortion/practices-science-precision-vs-accuracy https://manoa.hawaii.edu/exploringourfluidearth/physical/wor...
- jeffbee 2y ago
  All electronic oscillator watches are ultimately limited in this competition by the fact that their batteries will run out.
  - jsheard 2y ago
    Unless it's a Citizen Cal.0100, which is good to ±1 second per year and solar powered. Just don't leave it in a dark drawer for too long :)
    - user3939382 2y ago
      The solar batteries have a max discharge cycle too though.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- KaiserPro 2y ago
  Only citizen can achieve that. There are some watches that use external time references to achieve that level of accuracy. Most are +-5 or 10 seconds a year. The problem for me is the citizen isn’t that pretty to my eyes.

DennisP 2y ago

Achieving the accuracy they do, with just mechanical parts powered by a spring, seems reasonably impressive to me. It's basically the same technology that John Harrison used to win the Longitude Prize in the 1700s, revolutionizing navigation on the high seas.

jsheard 2y ago
That said, John Harrison didn't have access to Solidworks and 6-axis CNC machines like today's high horology brands do. The final product may still be fully mechanical but the process of getting there has advanced a bit.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > That said, John Harrison didn't have access to Solidworks and 6-axis CNC machines like today's high horology brands do. When you get into some of these luxury brands they pride themselves on not using CNC machines. See for example "Machining a 0.6 mm Screw": * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKVqLTzh_z4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKVqLTzh_z4
- DennisP 2y ago
  They also didn't have the materials we use for springs, or some of the mechanisms we use. The fact that these devices are the same basic tech from the 1700s, while at the same time being much more advanced, is actually part of the appeal for me.

School-Cotton 2y ago

This is sort of like complaining that an expensive dress isn’t very good at protecting the wearer from the elements.

user3939382 2y ago
I see your point but this still strikes me as a weak analogy. The purpose of any watch is to accurately tell time more than the purpose of any dress is to protect from the elements.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  The purpose of cheap clothing is to protect from the elements (and to prevent other people from seeing your naked body). The purpose of a cheap wristwatch is to tell time. The purpose of expensive versions of both of those is divorced from their original meaning.
  - microtherion 2y ago
    As demonstrated, e.g., by Bianca Censori's outfit at the Grammys.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  These are jewellery, and have been for a long time, really since quartz watches became practical.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

guax 2y ago

This one I believe is not the collectible one. I think is the marketing one. Is the concept car of watch world. The LaFerrari that makes people buy the expensive but cheaper Purosangue.