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If only my software were valued by number of complications... Everything about the high end "movement" scene rubs me the wrong way (I had a friend into it), bu

If only my software were valued by number of complications... Everything about the high end "movement" scene rubs me the wrong way (I had a friend into it), but most of all, the pompous terminology.

m463 2y ago
software does have tail recursion. This might be more like wrist recursion. EDIT: I wonder if a nixie wristwatch would be a middle ground?
- bookofjoe 2y ago
  https://www.timesticking.com/steve-wozniaks-nixie-watch/ https://www.timesticking.com/steve-wozniaks-nixie-watch/
slt2021 2y ago
in the B2B SAAS world these are called "features" or "integrations". Software with the most integrations and features is usually ends up being the most preferred solution
- pixelpoet 2y ago
  If you asked someone what a "feature" is, in almost any context, they will probably give you the answer we all expect. If you ask someone what a "movement" is, they might well refer to the poop they had that morning, or Eurythmy (which I had as a subject at school!), or almost anything. That's not a statement about how basic language has become, but rather intentionally lofty vagueness (like "bespoke" instead of custom) people invent for things perfectly well described by expressions anyone can use like "high precision timekeeping", but not-so-subtly signaling a higher price.
  - mlyle 2y ago
    The word "movement" for a watch movement is old. Ditto for "complication". Or "calibre". They come from the late 1700s and early 1800s. They were the normal words for the items described. They only sound fancy now that they have fallen into disuse. Actually, ditto for bespoke, now that you mention it.
    - pixelpoet 2y ago
      Real perspective shift from your comment, thanks! Reading more about usage of those terms now, but I still can't help but feel there's a deliberate "fancypants nonstandard language" signalling going on in the marketing of these "timepieces". There's an easy parallel to make with the audiophile industry, which uses all kinds of colourful but ultimately vacuous language.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > can't help but feel there's a deliberate "fancypants nonstandard language" signalling going on in the marketing of these "timepieces" You’re reverting to your priors despite evidence to the contrary.
        mlyle 2y ago
        > You’re reverting to your priors despite evidence to the contrary. Eh, I don't think what he's saying now is unreasonable. Certainly no one feels a pressure to use a modern term that might have less perceived value-- to say "functions" or "features" instead of "complications." A big part of the product of a fancy watch, or a bespoke suit, is the traditions. When tradition or sounding fancy is opposed to accessibility, the former will win.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > no one feels a pressure to use a modern term that might have less perceived value-- to say "functions" or "features" instead of "complications Methods in OOP. Every term in functional programming. Rolex does a little bit of the Apple game, renaming jargon. But the watch industry mostly uses the term the first person to use it deployed. (“Complications” makes more sense than “features” when working multilingual across French, German and Italian.) I’d also argue that “features” is a bit misleading. Complications aren’t about utility. They’re about art. It’s intentionally overcomplicating something.
  - milesrout 2y ago
    This is a baffling criticism. Why would you expect a niche not to have its own jargon? Not that "bespoke" is (it is an older usage than "custom" and is used widely). >people invent for things perfectly well described by expressions anyone can use like "high precision timekeeping" What is "high precision"? Why are you using engineering jargon when you could say something simple like "accurate"? Why are you using such lofty elitist language?
    - microtherion 2y ago
      It's true that niches have their jargon, but I tend to be suspicious when the jargon makes its way into marketing pitches. It's one thing if your software vendor writes the software in Haskell, but if their pitch to you is that the software has 40 patent protected monads and is entirely dotless and lambda lifted, you're probably being taken for a ride.
- Hamuko 2y ago
  Yeah, I was just thinking that our B2B SaaS has been trying to churn out as many features and integrations as possible, with customers constantly wanting more and more.
LeoPanthera 2y ago
> If only my software were valued by number of complications... Amateur radio software would win: https://sv1cal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/image.png https://sv1cal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/image.png
- avidiax 2y ago
  Which part of that interface is unnecessary? I agree, you could have an Apple-like interface that lets you tune a single frequency with a particular modulation, but nothing there seems like it's a constellation viewer that has almost no practical use.
  - internetter 2y ago
    At the very least, I think they could change some of the design elements to make more effective use of space
  - LeoPanthera 2y ago
    Where did I say that any of it was unnecessary?
- tdeck 2y ago
  I thought this was going to be xnec2c, which has one of the most unintuitive UIs I've ever experienced. https://www.xnec2c.org/#Nec2Treeview https://www.xnec2c.org/#Nec2Treeview But after a while I realized that's because it's essentially a graphical wrapper around a punched card program.
__loam 2y ago
You can get a watch that's more accurate and more complex than one of these for under $1000 in an Apple watch or a Casio. For me, this feels like one of the less harmful things rich people do. Ultimately you're paying a bunch of skilled labor in a developed state to maintain an artistic craft that uses very little energy and material, for a device that has worse functionality than one under $100. The only issue is where you got your money I suppose, and whether that money would have been better spent elsewhere.
- TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
  The point of these is to signal you have money and are enough of an insider to know the high-status brands - or at least high-status enough for that particular social group, who use them to reassure each other they're not in the vulgar Rolex set. They serve the same function as a designer handbag - although you can at least put things inside a handbag and carry them around.
  - petesergeant 2y ago
    > They serve the same function as a designer handbag Keeping EU trade imbalances from getting too far out of whack?
    - __loam 2y ago
      Switzerland is not part of the EU lol
  - CydeWeys 2y ago
    This is overly cynical. The target demographic for a really complicated Vacheron Constantin is a rich person who is a HUGE nerd about watches. Think about people who get into really high levels of nerd hobbies and acquire super expensive gear. It's not primarily about showing off.
    - mlyle 2y ago
      I'm not sure buying the super fancy handbag is primarily about showing off, either, and I think people who consume a lot of these goods have a lot of brand knowledge. I mean, I think you're right in that watch nerds usually have more domain knowledge, but I don't think it's inherently dissimilar.
GuB-42 2y ago
> If only my software were valued by number of complications... If it fits within a size and power budget, then you essentially described sizecoding. In its extreme form, it is not practical, but it is an art form.
- pixelpoet 2y ago
  > sizecoding as an artform See you at Revision next week? :)
  - GuB-42 2y ago
    Yes! I will be there in person.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Everything about the high end "movement" scene rubs me the wrong way (I had a friend into it) Why? I’m not a watch guy. But I think the engineering is beautiful. It’s also super niche, so there isn’t a financing model outside this to fund it.
- guax 2y ago
  The engineering and craft is beyond reproach, beautiful, involved, unique. The market in which it needs to exist is exclusive, arrogant and elitist. So there is a bittersweet response to it. Makes me think of Royal arts of the past, made to adorn the palaces and display wealth. beautiful, but they're better now at museums. I believe this watch shall too.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > beautiful, but they're better now at museums Strongly disagree. Pilfered artefacts are usually safer in a Western museum. But they’re more beautiful when left in their natural environment. In any case, if there is one thing sillier than someone with no respect for fine watches treating them as a status symbol, it’s getting upset about it as a bystander.
  - milesrout 2y ago
    [flagged]
konart 2y ago
I (surely I'm not alone here) know many people who would say the same thing about software development "scene". Hell, even _inside_ the software development "scene" you can easily find similar cases. Like when web developer who builds (relatevily) simple web apps on top of Rails earns notably more then someone who works with a complex hardware.

If only my software were valued by number of complications... Everything about the high end "movement" scene rubs me the wrong way (I had a friend into it), but most of all, the pompous terminology.

m463 2y ago

software does have tail recursion. This might be more like wrist recursion. EDIT: I wonder if a nixie wristwatch would be a middle ground?

bookofjoe 2y ago
https://www.timesticking.com/steve-wozniaks-nixie-watch/ https://www.timesticking.com/steve-wozniaks-nixie-watch/

slt2021 2y ago

in the B2B SAAS world these are called "features" or "integrations". Software with the most integrations and features is usually ends up being the most preferred solution

pixelpoet 2y ago
If you asked someone what a "feature" is, in almost any context, they will probably give you the answer we all expect. If you ask someone what a "movement" is, they might well refer to the poop they had that morning, or Eurythmy (which I had as a subject at school!), or almost anything. That's not a statement about how basic language has become, but rather intentionally lofty vagueness (like "bespoke" instead of custom) people invent for things perfectly well described by expressions anyone can use like "high precision timekeeping", but not-so-subtly signaling a higher price.
- mlyle 2y ago
  The word "movement" for a watch movement is old. Ditto for "complication". Or "calibre". They come from the late 1700s and early 1800s. They were the normal words for the items described. They only sound fancy now that they have fallen into disuse. Actually, ditto for bespoke, now that you mention it.
  - pixelpoet 2y ago
    Real perspective shift from your comment, thanks! Reading more about usage of those terms now, but I still can't help but feel there's a deliberate "fancypants nonstandard language" signalling going on in the marketing of these "timepieces". There's an easy parallel to make with the audiophile industry, which uses all kinds of colourful but ultimately vacuous language.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > can't help but feel there's a deliberate "fancypants nonstandard language" signalling going on in the marketing of these "timepieces" You’re reverting to your priors despite evidence to the contrary.
      - mlyle 2y ago
        > You’re reverting to your priors despite evidence to the contrary. Eh, I don't think what he's saying now is unreasonable. Certainly no one feels a pressure to use a modern term that might have less perceived value-- to say "functions" or "features" instead of "complications." A big part of the product of a fancy watch, or a bespoke suit, is the traditions. When tradition or sounding fancy is opposed to accessibility, the former will win.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > no one feels a pressure to use a modern term that might have less perceived value-- to say "functions" or "features" instead of "complications Methods in OOP. Every term in functional programming. Rolex does a little bit of the Apple game, renaming jargon. But the watch industry mostly uses the term the first person to use it deployed. (“Complications” makes more sense than “features” when working multilingual across French, German and Italian.) I’d also argue that “features” is a bit misleading. Complications aren’t about utility. They’re about art. It’s intentionally overcomplicating something.
- milesrout 2y ago
  This is a baffling criticism. Why would you expect a niche not to have its own jargon? Not that "bespoke" is (it is an older usage than "custom" and is used widely). >people invent for things perfectly well described by expressions anyone can use like "high precision timekeeping" What is "high precision"? Why are you using engineering jargon when you could say something simple like "accurate"? Why are you using such lofty elitist language?
  - microtherion 2y ago
    It's true that niches have their jargon, but I tend to be suspicious when the jargon makes its way into marketing pitches. It's one thing if your software vendor writes the software in Haskell, but if their pitch to you is that the software has 40 patent protected monads and is entirely dotless and lambda lifted, you're probably being taken for a ride.
Hamuko 2y ago
Yeah, I was just thinking that our B2B SaaS has been trying to churn out as many features and integrations as possible, with customers constantly wanting more and more.

LeoPanthera 2y ago

> If only my software were valued by number of complications... Amateur radio software would win: https://sv1cal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/image.png https://sv1cal.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/image.png

avidiax 2y ago
Which part of that interface is unnecessary? I agree, you could have an Apple-like interface that lets you tune a single frequency with a particular modulation, but nothing there seems like it's a constellation viewer that has almost no practical use.
- internetter 2y ago
  At the very least, I think they could change some of the design elements to make more effective use of space
- LeoPanthera 2y ago
  Where did I say that any of it was unnecessary?
tdeck 2y ago
I thought this was going to be xnec2c, which has one of the most unintuitive UIs I've ever experienced. https://www.xnec2c.org/#Nec2Treeview https://www.xnec2c.org/#Nec2Treeview But after a while I realized that's because it's essentially a graphical wrapper around a punched card program.

__loam 2y ago

You can get a watch that's more accurate and more complex than one of these for under $1000 in an Apple watch or a Casio. For me, this feels like one of the less harmful things rich people do. Ultimately you're paying a bunch of skilled labor in a developed state to maintain an artistic craft that uses very little energy and material, for a device that has worse functionality than one under $100. The only issue is where you got your money I suppose, and whether that money would have been better spent elsewhere.

TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
The point of these is to signal you have money and are enough of an insider to know the high-status brands - or at least high-status enough for that particular social group, who use them to reassure each other they're not in the vulgar Rolex set. They serve the same function as a designer handbag - although you can at least put things inside a handbag and carry them around.
- petesergeant 2y ago
  > They serve the same function as a designer handbag Keeping EU trade imbalances from getting too far out of whack?
  - __loam 2y ago
    Switzerland is not part of the EU lol
- CydeWeys 2y ago
  This is overly cynical. The target demographic for a really complicated Vacheron Constantin is a rich person who is a HUGE nerd about watches. Think about people who get into really high levels of nerd hobbies and acquire super expensive gear. It's not primarily about showing off.
  - mlyle 2y ago
    I'm not sure buying the super fancy handbag is primarily about showing off, either, and I think people who consume a lot of these goods have a lot of brand knowledge. I mean, I think you're right in that watch nerds usually have more domain knowledge, but I don't think it's inherently dissimilar.

GuB-42 2y ago

> If only my software were valued by number of complications... If it fits within a size and power budget, then you essentially described sizecoding. In its extreme form, it is not practical, but it is an art form.

pixelpoet 2y ago
> sizecoding as an artform See you at Revision next week? :)
- GuB-42 2y ago
  Yes! I will be there in person.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> Everything about the high end "movement" scene rubs me the wrong way (I had a friend into it) Why? I’m not a watch guy. But I think the engineering is beautiful. It’s also super niche, so there isn’t a financing model outside this to fund it.

guax 2y ago
The engineering and craft is beyond reproach, beautiful, involved, unique. The market in which it needs to exist is exclusive, arrogant and elitist. So there is a bittersweet response to it. Makes me think of Royal arts of the past, made to adorn the palaces and display wealth. beautiful, but they're better now at museums. I believe this watch shall too.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > beautiful, but they're better now at museums Strongly disagree. Pilfered artefacts are usually safer in a Western museum. But they’re more beautiful when left in their natural environment. In any case, if there is one thing sillier than someone with no respect for fine watches treating them as a status symbol, it’s getting upset about it as a bystander.
- milesrout 2y ago
  [flagged]

konart 2y ago

I (surely I'm not alone here) know many people who would say the same thing about software development "scene". Hell, even _inside_ the software development "scene" you can easily find similar cases. Like when web developer who builds (relatevily) simple web apps on top of Rails earns notably more then someone who works with a complex hardware.