5 ms·

Poignant quote. Should we as a society accept students who are calling for violence and intifada on Israel or Jewish people in general? If anything some of thos

Poignant quote. Should we as a society accept students who are calling for violence and intifada on Israel or Jewish people in general? If anything some of those pro-Palestinian protests were more reminiscent of the 1933 “German Firm” boycotts the quote mentions than not: > A boycott sign posted on the display window of a Jewish-owned business reads: "Germans defend yourselves against Jewish atrocity propaganda. Buy only at German shops!" Berlin, Germany, April 1, 1933. It seems that a number of these students have been participating in events and protests calling for violence. After all there’s probably 10’s of thousands of student protestors, and likely many of them foreign students too. So it doesn’t seem like a “deport all Muslim students” either. Peaceful protests are one thing, but I’ve seen some of these protests in person and it’s clear they’re not all peaceful demonstrations. Also supporting Hamas and Hezbollah is not supporting peaceful innocent freedom fighters. Both groups are clear and open on their stance for genocide against Israelies. However we shouldn’t deport students who are peaceful and haven’t called for violence against others. It’s great that those cases are being called out and publicly criticized . But not every one of these cases are an innocent student getting caught up either. What is happening is Gaza is terrible all around. It shouldn’t be used as an excuse to call for more violence against Jews or Muslims.

Braxton1980 2y ago
Nazi rallies occur periodically in the US https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/18/us/columbus-ohio-neo-nazi-march-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/18/us/columbus-ohio-neo-nazi-mar...
- elcritch 2y ago
  International students attending those events should probably be deported as well. Especially if they're helping to lead or promote them.
  - Braxton1980 2y ago
    What about American citizens and why should they be treated differently?
    - elcritch 2y ago
      They're American citizens and our problem to handle and tolerate? Also the US is hardly unique in deporting extremists: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2016/06/16/france-to-deport-neo-nazi-leader-of-russian-fans-union-a53322 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2016/06/16/france-to-deport-n... https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy48v8n389ro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy48v8n389ro
      - Braxton1980 2y ago
        >Also the US is hardly unique in deporting extremists: How is this argument over right or wrong? The US has a unique system of rights and the first modern Democracy. >They're American citizens and our problem to handle and tolerate? Why can't it be our problem to tolerate and handle green card holders, students with Visas, etc
whatshisface 2y ago
The way it works in American culture is quite simple. You are allowed to say whatever you like, but certain acts (like vandalism, or causing bodily harm to another individual) are criminalized. What we find in practice is that the truly awful people commit these crimes in addition to speaking awful things. We avoid punishing the merely incorrect.
- DrFalkyn 2y ago
  This isn’t quite true. The last language from the Supreme Court, in Brandeburg vs. Ohio ( 1969) was “imminent lawless action”. There’s also standards for the public airwaves, which are regulated by the FCC. maybe not as important as they used to be, but still there and the major networks which are also broadcasters abide Also there’s specific exceptions like threatening the President, and “obscene” material, such as porn. The there’s the question of private ownership of the platform. You certainly can’t say whatever yiu want on YouTube, for instance.
  - whatshisface 2y ago
    The topic is American culture and norms, not the rights of corporations to make deals with foreign powers concerning domestic activities.
thatcat 2y ago
gp's example is a slippery slope fallacy, adjusting political speech by deportation seems inappropriate.
- elcritch 2y ago
  There is a difference in a foreign national engaging in political speech and a citizen. If anything allowing foreign nationals to adjust political speech here while supporting violence or terrorism would be inappropriate and unwise. After all, it's easy for a foreign power to send radicalizers to a foreign country to influence or topple them. Well trodeen history there. Sending radical students is much more effective than a few thousand Twitter bots.
  - Braxton1980 2y ago
    https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/
  - thatcat 2y ago
    respecting the rights of others to hold opinions that differ from your own is always appropriate and wise in the united states.
    - elcritch 2y ago
      Of course, and as it stands foreign nationals on Visa's in the US don't have the same rights as citizens. Not that they shouldn't have some degree of free speech, but they can also be scrutinized and deported for advocating for violence and terrorism.
      - thatcat 2y ago
        That scrutiny is a waste of federal resources since you're basically extending the notion of advocating violence to supporting any side in any war - perhaps meta should just go ahead and remove all posts on both sides.
PieTime 2y ago
It’s hardly an equal fight, Gaza is an occupied and colonized territory that has limited ability for resistance. We wouldn’t be having this same discussion about South Africa overthrowing their apartheid.
ImPostingOnHN 2y ago
> Israel or Jewish people in general? as a person of jewish faith, I ask that you please not falsely conflate these two completely different concepts someone who opposes jewish people in general is bad, but someone who opposes the ongoing genocide of palestinians is good your usage of "or" here would indicate that the above good person is grouped together with the above bad person > If anything some of those pro-Palestinian protests were more reminiscent of the 1933 “German Firm” boycotts structuring your metaphor like this, strikes me as an example of DARVO [0], considering what is being done to innocent palestinians. how many israelis patronize businesses based in palestine? how many such businesses do you patronize? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
dubyah 2y ago
"By looking at property damage and police injuries, we also conclude that this pro-Palestine movement has not been violent. That is true of both the national protest wave in general and of the student encampments in spring 2024 in particular. The rhetorical core of this pro-Palestine movement has not been a call for violence against Jews, but rather a call for freedom for Palestinians and an end to violence being inflicted upon them. To substantiate this point, we considered two sources of evidence: 1) the banners, signs, and chants seen or heard at pro-Palestine events; 2) the demands issued by organizers of over 100 student encampments." https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14742837.2024.2415674?src= https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14742837.2024.2...

Braxton1980 2y ago

Nazi rallies occur periodically in the US https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/18/us/columbus-ohio-neo-nazi-march-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/18/us/columbus-ohio-neo-nazi-mar...

elcritch 2y ago
International students attending those events should probably be deported as well. Especially if they're helping to lead or promote them.
- Braxton1980 2y ago
  What about American citizens and why should they be treated differently?
  - elcritch 2y ago
    They're American citizens and our problem to handle and tolerate? Also the US is hardly unique in deporting extremists: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2016/06/16/france-to-deport-neo-nazi-leader-of-russian-fans-union-a53322 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2016/06/16/france-to-deport-n... https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy48v8n389ro https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy48v8n389ro
    - Braxton1980 2y ago
      >Also the US is hardly unique in deporting extremists: How is this argument over right or wrong? The US has a unique system of rights and the first modern Democracy. >They're American citizens and our problem to handle and tolerate? Why can't it be our problem to tolerate and handle green card holders, students with Visas, etc

whatshisface 2y ago

The way it works in American culture is quite simple. You are allowed to say whatever you like, but certain acts (like vandalism, or causing bodily harm to another individual) are criminalized. What we find in practice is that the truly awful people commit these crimes in addition to speaking awful things. We avoid punishing the merely incorrect.

DrFalkyn 2y ago
This isn’t quite true. The last language from the Supreme Court, in Brandeburg vs. Ohio ( 1969) was “imminent lawless action”. There’s also standards for the public airwaves, which are regulated by the FCC. maybe not as important as they used to be, but still there and the major networks which are also broadcasters abide Also there’s specific exceptions like threatening the President, and “obscene” material, such as porn. The there’s the question of private ownership of the platform. You certainly can’t say whatever yiu want on YouTube, for instance.
- whatshisface 2y ago
  The topic is American culture and norms, not the rights of corporations to make deals with foreign powers concerning domestic activities.

thatcat 2y ago

gp's example is a slippery slope fallacy, adjusting political speech by deportation seems inappropriate.

elcritch 2y ago
There is a difference in a foreign national engaging in political speech and a citizen. If anything allowing foreign nationals to adjust political speech here while supporting violence or terrorism would be inappropriate and unwise. After all, it's easy for a foreign power to send radicalizers to a foreign country to influence or topple them. Well trodeen history there. Sending radical students is much more effective than a few thousand Twitter bots.
- Braxton1980 2y ago
  https://www.aipac.org/ https://www.aipac.org/
- thatcat 2y ago
  respecting the rights of others to hold opinions that differ from your own is always appropriate and wise in the united states.
  - elcritch 2y ago
    Of course, and as it stands foreign nationals on Visa's in the US don't have the same rights as citizens. Not that they shouldn't have some degree of free speech, but they can also be scrutinized and deported for advocating for violence and terrorism.
    - thatcat 2y ago
      That scrutiny is a waste of federal resources since you're basically extending the notion of advocating violence to supporting any side in any war - perhaps meta should just go ahead and remove all posts on both sides.

PieTime 2y ago

It’s hardly an equal fight, Gaza is an occupied and colonized territory that has limited ability for resistance. We wouldn’t be having this same discussion about South Africa overthrowing their apartheid.

ImPostingOnHN 2y ago

> Israel or Jewish people in general? as a person of jewish faith, I ask that you please not falsely conflate these two completely different concepts someone who opposes jewish people in general is bad, but someone who opposes the ongoing genocide of palestinians is good your usage of "or" here would indicate that the above good person is grouped together with the above bad person > If anything some of those pro-Palestinian protests were more reminiscent of the 1933 “German Firm” boycotts structuring your metaphor like this, strikes me as an example of DARVO [0], considering what is being done to innocent palestinians. how many israelis patronize businesses based in palestine? how many such businesses do you patronize? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO

dubyah 2y ago

"By looking at property damage and police injuries, we also conclude that this pro-Palestine movement has not been violent. That is true of both the national protest wave in general and of the student encampments in spring 2024 in particular. The rhetorical core of this pro-Palestine movement has not been a call for violence against Jews, but rather a call for freedom for Palestinians and an end to violence being inflicted upon them. To substantiate this point, we considered two sources of evidence: 1) the banners, signs, and chants seen or heard at pro-Palestine events; 2) the demands issued by organizers of over 100 student encampments." https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14742837.2024.2415674?src= https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14742837.2024.2...