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Do they? We generally don’t give noncitizens the right to own a gun in the us, so clearly we are selective about applying the 2nd amendment protection. The 4th

Do they? We generally don’t give noncitizens the right to own a gun in the us, so clearly we are selective about applying the 2nd amendment protection. The 4th may need adjudication.

empath75 1y ago
Permanent residents have the right to own a gun in the US. The supreme court has upheld many many times that the fourth amendment applies to all people within the borders of the US.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
  And just what process is due a person under risk of deportation? People say "due process" quite often without even giving any thought to what the term means, and I doubt that 1 in 4 could give a casual definition. One might think that the only process due to such a person would be the opportunity to contest that they were a citizen and to provide evidence to that claim. Was he denied this? Did they slap a muzzle on him as he tried to scream "but my birth certificate's in the sock drawer, just take a look!"? If the agents who detained and deported him ran any sort of check that would have discovered his citizenship in time to prevent a deportation (had he been a citizen), this seems about all the process that could or should be due. PS Am I the only one that notices how the news media always describes him as "from Maryland" when he wasn't born there, didn't attend school there, etc?
  - KingMob 1y ago
    > the only process due to such a person would be the opportunity to contest that they were a citizen and to provide evidence to that claim They should have the due process to prove they are here legally. And yes, they were denied that. Even if you imagine due process is for citizens only, you can't prove citizenship status without due process, so it has to be given to everyone. Otherwise, nothing's stopping ICE from just claiming you're not a citizen and shipping you off to El Salvador. How would you prove otherwise?
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
      > They should have the due process to prove they are here legally. This sounds like a nonsense statement. Non-citizens are only ever here legally at the pleasure of the United States. If we allow them in for 2 weeks, or 3 months, or whatever on a visa... we can change our minds and cancel it early. The idea that they can have some absolute temporary right to be here ignores what it means to be a non-citizen. You have no right to be here, just a temporary privilege that can be revoked at any point for entirely arbitrary reasons. >And yes, they were denied that. I've heard no evidence that this was the case. "Due process" rights are, in many cases administrative. No trial, no judge. >Even if you imagine due process is for citizens only, I did not say this, and I do not imagine it. I just happen to know what due process rights actually are. >you can't prove citizenship status without due process, Was he denied his opportunity to prove citizenship to the agents who detained him? Did he try to get them to look in his wallet for papers, but they ignored that? Did he beg them to just look in his closet and see his birth certificate? That would be denial of due process. >Otherwise, nothing's stopping ICE from just claiming you're not a citizen So you claim. But it's absurd to think that will happen. If you believe it will happen, then just wait and sound the alarm when it does. I'll be genuinely surprised.
      - wqaatwt 1y ago
        > . But it's absurd to think that will happen Really? The things that are happening now are so absurdly insane that nobody could have imagined them just a few years ago, and you are still gullible enough to say something as silly like that... > sound the alarm when it does The loons will just move the goalposts yet again. So what would that achieve?
        NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
        [flagged]
        wqaatwt 1y ago
        > It's absurd that people who aren't citizens would be sent back to their home countries I’m obviously referring to everything the current administration is doing not this specific case. > common ground with the left I’d consider myself a moderate centrist. Maybe mildly center-right. > Do you even know why you want If the only way of stopping them from coming is to surrender democracy to an authoritarian government staffed by exceptionally deranged and incompetent individuals, well.. let them come then.. > I contend that there's no chance of me ever being deported Probably. As long as you don’t burn down any Teslas or say nasty thing about the president it’s very unlikely.. > of unease you feel right now continues until 2029 and beyond. So you are willing to give up democracy and the rule of law (and economic stability for that matter..) just to get rid of some immigrants you don’t like?
  - kamlaserbeam 1y ago
    If we don't have due process, in that, you can't go and defend yourself in public court, nobody here is really legal or not. It doesn't matter if your birth certificate is in the other room. Without due process it's whatever the ICE agent that's bagging you feels like. What are you gonna do? You don't get due process, you get no court hearing, you get the pleasure of getting onto a plane and flown out to a slave labor prison in El Salvador. Also Garcia had full legal permission to be here but it shows they never checked it and thus he was whisked away like we can expect other's to be if things stay on the current path.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
      >If we don't have due process, in that, you can't go and defend yourself in public court That's not due process. Due process rights do not guarantee you any sort of court hearing or trial. It does not require a judge. 90% or more of due process is administrative in nature. The bureaucracy infringes your due process rights when they don't "go through the motions" of how to handle a particular situation. How should they handle deporting someone? By checking that they're not deporting a citizen. If they failed to check, if they failed to give him the opportunity to prove citizenship, they denied his due process rights. Did they do this? >It doesn't matter if your birth certificate is in the other room. Without due proces You miss the point. I wasn't asking if his birth certificate was there or not. I'm asking "did they give him the chance to claim as much, and did they follow up and make sure it wasn't there". If they didn't give him the opportunity to make the claim, if they ignored such a claim, this is a denial of due process. And there was no denial. If you had more than a second grader's understanding of due process, you wouldn't be so confused here. > What are you gonna do? You don't get due process, "Look Mr. ICEman, you're making a mistake. We can clear this up in minutes, pull my wallet out and take a look at my identity documents, some of which indicate I'm a citizen. It'll only take two minutes to reveal me as a liar if that's not the case." And if they refuse, then my due process rights have been denied. >Also Garcia had full legal permission to be here He showed up without such permission, then weaseled his way into getting contested permission after the fact. Which was always the case under previous policy, there was no practical way to send them back if they made it 100 yards across the border.
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    > One might think that the only process due to such a person would be the opportunity to contest Well a federal judge thought otherwise. The government ignored him and did what they wanted anyway. That’s your definition of due process? > Am I the only one that notice So your comment is actually sarcastic?
- int_19h 1y ago
  Not just permanent residents, either. I have legally owned numerous firearms while on L1 and H1B visas in US.

Do they? We generally don’t give noncitizens the right to own a gun in the us, so clearly we are selective about applying the 2nd amendment protection. The 4th may need adjudication.

empath75 1y ago

Permanent residents have the right to own a gun in the US. The supreme court has upheld many many times that the fourth amendment applies to all people within the borders of the US.

NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
And just what process is due a person under risk of deportation? People say "due process" quite often without even giving any thought to what the term means, and I doubt that 1 in 4 could give a casual definition. One might think that the only process due to such a person would be the opportunity to contest that they were a citizen and to provide evidence to that claim. Was he denied this? Did they slap a muzzle on him as he tried to scream "but my birth certificate's in the sock drawer, just take a look!"? If the agents who detained and deported him ran any sort of check that would have discovered his citizenship in time to prevent a deportation (had he been a citizen), this seems about all the process that could or should be due. PS Am I the only one that notices how the news media always describes him as "from Maryland" when he wasn't born there, didn't attend school there, etc?
- KingMob 1y ago
  > the only process due to such a person would be the opportunity to contest that they were a citizen and to provide evidence to that claim They should have the due process to prove they are here legally. And yes, they were denied that. Even if you imagine due process is for citizens only, you can't prove citizenship status without due process, so it has to be given to everyone. Otherwise, nothing's stopping ICE from just claiming you're not a citizen and shipping you off to El Salvador. How would you prove otherwise?
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
    > They should have the due process to prove they are here legally. This sounds like a nonsense statement. Non-citizens are only ever here legally at the pleasure of the United States. If we allow them in for 2 weeks, or 3 months, or whatever on a visa... we can change our minds and cancel it early. The idea that they can have some absolute temporary right to be here ignores what it means to be a non-citizen. You have no right to be here, just a temporary privilege that can be revoked at any point for entirely arbitrary reasons. >And yes, they were denied that. I've heard no evidence that this was the case. "Due process" rights are, in many cases administrative. No trial, no judge. >Even if you imagine due process is for citizens only, I did not say this, and I do not imagine it. I just happen to know what due process rights actually are. >you can't prove citizenship status without due process, Was he denied his opportunity to prove citizenship to the agents who detained him? Did he try to get them to look in his wallet for papers, but they ignored that? Did he beg them to just look in his closet and see his birth certificate? That would be denial of due process. >Otherwise, nothing's stopping ICE from just claiming you're not a citizen So you claim. But it's absurd to think that will happen. If you believe it will happen, then just wait and sound the alarm when it does. I'll be genuinely surprised.
    - wqaatwt 1y ago
      > . But it's absurd to think that will happen Really? The things that are happening now are so absurdly insane that nobody could have imagined them just a few years ago, and you are still gullible enough to say something as silly like that... > sound the alarm when it does The loons will just move the goalposts yet again. So what would that achieve?
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
        [flagged]
        wqaatwt 1y ago
        > It's absurd that people who aren't citizens would be sent back to their home countries I’m obviously referring to everything the current administration is doing not this specific case. > common ground with the left I’d consider myself a moderate centrist. Maybe mildly center-right. > Do you even know why you want If the only way of stopping them from coming is to surrender democracy to an authoritarian government staffed by exceptionally deranged and incompetent individuals, well.. let them come then.. > I contend that there's no chance of me ever being deported Probably. As long as you don’t burn down any Teslas or say nasty thing about the president it’s very unlikely.. > of unease you feel right now continues until 2029 and beyond. So you are willing to give up democracy and the rule of law (and economic stability for that matter..) just to get rid of some immigrants you don’t like?
- kamlaserbeam 1y ago
  If we don't have due process, in that, you can't go and defend yourself in public court, nobody here is really legal or not. It doesn't matter if your birth certificate is in the other room. Without due process it's whatever the ICE agent that's bagging you feels like. What are you gonna do? You don't get due process, you get no court hearing, you get the pleasure of getting onto a plane and flown out to a slave labor prison in El Salvador. Also Garcia had full legal permission to be here but it shows they never checked it and thus he was whisked away like we can expect other's to be if things stay on the current path.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 1y ago
    >If we don't have due process, in that, you can't go and defend yourself in public court That's not due process. Due process rights do not guarantee you any sort of court hearing or trial. It does not require a judge. 90% or more of due process is administrative in nature. The bureaucracy infringes your due process rights when they don't "go through the motions" of how to handle a particular situation. How should they handle deporting someone? By checking that they're not deporting a citizen. If they failed to check, if they failed to give him the opportunity to prove citizenship, they denied his due process rights. Did they do this? >It doesn't matter if your birth certificate is in the other room. Without due proces You miss the point. I wasn't asking if his birth certificate was there or not. I'm asking "did they give him the chance to claim as much, and did they follow up and make sure it wasn't there". If they didn't give him the opportunity to make the claim, if they ignored such a claim, this is a denial of due process. And there was no denial. If you had more than a second grader's understanding of due process, you wouldn't be so confused here. > What are you gonna do? You don't get due process, "Look Mr. ICEman, you're making a mistake. We can clear this up in minutes, pull my wallet out and take a look at my identity documents, some of which indicate I'm a citizen. It'll only take two minutes to reveal me as a liar if that's not the case." And if they refuse, then my due process rights have been denied. >Also Garcia had full legal permission to be here He showed up without such permission, then weaseled his way into getting contested permission after the fact. Which was always the case under previous policy, there was no practical way to send them back if they made it 100 yards across the border.
- wqaatwt 1y ago
  > One might think that the only process due to such a person would be the opportunity to contest Well a federal judge thought otherwise. The government ignored him and did what they wanted anyway. That’s your definition of due process? > Am I the only one that notice So your comment is actually sarcastic?
int_19h 1y ago
Not just permanent residents, either. I have legally owned numerous firearms while on L1 and H1B visas in US.