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> As with other roguelikes, you can unlock persistent upgrades that smooth over repetitive parts of the game. I think those are called rogue-lites, for the rea

> As with other roguelikes, you can unlock persistent upgrades that smooth over repetitive parts of the game. I think those are called rogue-lites, for the reason that real rogue-likes (e.g. nethack, DCSS) actually wipe out all your progress on each attempt.

skyyler 2y ago
At this point, times have shifted, and meta-progression is usually considered an aspect of modern roguelikes. There was a trend of calling them "rogue-lites" but that's faded and now games like ADOM and DCSS are "Classic roguelikes" It's not a hard and fast rule or anything, just what I've observed in gaming discussions.
- uses 2y ago
  Indeed, the distinction used to be useful. But now, it's not useful because honest-to-God roguelikes are just not getting made outside hobby projects. Meanwhile, roguelites have become a core pillar of modern gaming, artistically and commercially. I think calling roguelites roguelikes is perfectly fine. It's simply what the genre became.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    That's horrible, but I can't stop you.
  - chongli 2y ago
    I prefer that they be hobby projects or solo-developer crowdfunded efforts. Generally, I find that the traditional (waterfall) lifecycle of commercial games is not conducive to a good Roguelike. This is because the game is quickly shifted into maintenance-mode after release and stops receiving major updates soon after. Roguelikes really benefit from long-term development and continual balancing, new content, and quality of life updates in response to feedback from players. These are games meant to be played and mastered over the course of several years. Traditional commercial game releases are much better suited to one-and-done style single play-throughs. The other major commercial model, the subscription- or microtransaction-supported long-term game development, such as you'd see with popular multiplayer games like Fortnite or League of Legends, would seem to be a viable alternative for Roguelike development. I don't think it would work out in practice, however, since most gamers don't seem to be interested in playing a game to mastery unless it involves a high level of competitive play.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  Traditional roguelike is the term I see on Reddit and Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Traditional+Roguelike https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Traditional+Roguelike Traditional roguelikes seem cool in theory, but I like co-op for most of my PvE content, and like most turn-based games, no co-op to be had there.
- chongli 2y ago
  That’s a shame, because meta-progression ultimately undermines the spirit of these classic games. Roguelikes were designed to play like arcade games in that you’d always start over from scratch and try to get a high score. Most attempts ended in failure but as you got better at the game it was reflected in your score. Even after players achieve a high degree of expertise they still find the games challenging to win and so they keep playing and enjoying them for years to come. Meta-progression takes away the from-scratch element and just allows you to win through sheer persistence, chipping away at the problem until it’s easy enough for you to finish it in one final run. But then what? The game is no longer the same challenge it was when you first started. It’s like a mountain that keeps getting smaller every time you attempt to climb it, until it’s finally shrunk to the size of an anthill. This is not a recipe for a game you can play for many years. Ultimately, what meta-progression does is turn a roguelike into a standard narrative RPG just like any other. This is one where the player’s goal is to reach the end of the game and that’s it, not to learn the game’s systems and reach a high level of mastery.
  - jncfhnb 2y ago
    Eh, idk. Theres an argument to be had that meta progression tends to cap in most of these games so eventually it becomes a stable thing. Although generally I find the meta progression of things goes too far and starts off too weak.
    - chongli 2y ago
      Yes, because the goal of the game designer who adds meta progression is to increase the number of players who actually finish the game, at least when it comes to the "true progression" style meta progression. There is another approach based on unlocks, where the player unlocks new characters or game modes rather than having a single character get more and more powerful with each run. Some people prefer these unlocks but others don't. I saw one streamer, Jorbs, who got a brand new game and immediately looked up a save file hack to unlock everything from the beginning because he so detested unlocks.
      - 2y ago
- ajkjk 2y ago
  I kinda disagree? mostly I see people use roguelite to refer to roguelikes with progression and roguelike for those without. But I suppose both are also called roguelike as a gloss.
taejo 2y ago
NetHack does have ghost files (where you find the levels previous characters died on, including their ghost and their possibly-cursed loot). It's definitely not the same kind of progression as in modern rogue-lites, but it can be a boost to pick up the equipment you found on a previous run.
- chongli 2y ago
  Do note that enemies can also pick up that old equipment and use it against you. I lost a promising character during the last November NetHack Tournament [1] because a gnome picked up a wand of fire from someone’s grave and blasted me with it. Yeah that’s another difference. When you play NetHack online [2] [3] you run into the ghosts and graves of other players, not just your own previous characters. I have run into levels online with the ghosts of 3 different people who were all killed by various dangerous monsters that kept accumulating more powerful equipment from each victim. It can be quite ridiculous! [1] https://tnnt.org/ https://tnnt.org/ [2] https://alt.org/nethack/ https://alt.org/nethack/ [3] https://www.hardfought.org/ https://www.hardfought.org/
Nifty3929 2y ago
Not sure I quite agree - I think it's fine to have "persistent upgrades that smooth over repetitive parts of the game" within the proper roguelike genre, as long as they don't make the run easier. Gungeon is an example, with unlocks for skipping lower levels once you have demonstrated sufficient mastery that they're merely time-wasters rather than adding to the challenge.

skyyler 2y ago

At this point, times have shifted, and meta-progression is usually considered an aspect of modern roguelikes. There was a trend of calling them "rogue-lites" but that's faded and now games like ADOM and DCSS are "Classic roguelikes" It's not a hard and fast rule or anything, just what I've observed in gaming discussions.

uses 2y ago
Indeed, the distinction used to be useful. But now, it's not useful because honest-to-God roguelikes are just not getting made outside hobby projects. Meanwhile, roguelites have become a core pillar of modern gaming, artistically and commercially. I think calling roguelites roguelikes is perfectly fine. It's simply what the genre became.
- card_zero 2y ago
  That's horrible, but I can't stop you.
- chongli 2y ago
  I prefer that they be hobby projects or solo-developer crowdfunded efforts. Generally, I find that the traditional (waterfall) lifecycle of commercial games is not conducive to a good Roguelike. This is because the game is quickly shifted into maintenance-mode after release and stops receiving major updates soon after. Roguelikes really benefit from long-term development and continual balancing, new content, and quality of life updates in response to feedback from players. These are games meant to be played and mastered over the course of several years. Traditional commercial game releases are much better suited to one-and-done style single play-throughs. The other major commercial model, the subscription- or microtransaction-supported long-term game development, such as you'd see with popular multiplayer games like Fortnite or League of Legends, would seem to be a viable alternative for Roguelike development. I don't think it would work out in practice, however, since most gamers don't seem to be interested in playing a game to mastery unless it involves a high level of competitive play.
TulliusCicero 2y ago
Traditional roguelike is the term I see on Reddit and Steam: https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Traditional+Roguelike https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Traditional+Roguelike Traditional roguelikes seem cool in theory, but I like co-op for most of my PvE content, and like most turn-based games, no co-op to be had there.
chongli 2y ago
That’s a shame, because meta-progression ultimately undermines the spirit of these classic games. Roguelikes were designed to play like arcade games in that you’d always start over from scratch and try to get a high score. Most attempts ended in failure but as you got better at the game it was reflected in your score. Even after players achieve a high degree of expertise they still find the games challenging to win and so they keep playing and enjoying them for years to come. Meta-progression takes away the from-scratch element and just allows you to win through sheer persistence, chipping away at the problem until it’s easy enough for you to finish it in one final run. But then what? The game is no longer the same challenge it was when you first started. It’s like a mountain that keeps getting smaller every time you attempt to climb it, until it’s finally shrunk to the size of an anthill. This is not a recipe for a game you can play for many years. Ultimately, what meta-progression does is turn a roguelike into a standard narrative RPG just like any other. This is one where the player’s goal is to reach the end of the game and that’s it, not to learn the game’s systems and reach a high level of mastery.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  Eh, idk. Theres an argument to be had that meta progression tends to cap in most of these games so eventually it becomes a stable thing. Although generally I find the meta progression of things goes too far and starts off too weak.
  - chongli 2y ago
    Yes, because the goal of the game designer who adds meta progression is to increase the number of players who actually finish the game, at least when it comes to the "true progression" style meta progression. There is another approach based on unlocks, where the player unlocks new characters or game modes rather than having a single character get more and more powerful with each run. Some people prefer these unlocks but others don't. I saw one streamer, Jorbs, who got a brand new game and immediately looked up a save file hack to unlock everything from the beginning because he so detested unlocks.
    - 2y ago
ajkjk 2y ago
I kinda disagree? mostly I see people use roguelite to refer to roguelikes with progression and roguelike for those without. But I suppose both are also called roguelike as a gloss.

taejo 2y ago

NetHack does have ghost files (where you find the levels previous characters died on, including their ghost and their possibly-cursed loot). It's definitely not the same kind of progression as in modern rogue-lites, but it can be a boost to pick up the equipment you found on a previous run.

chongli 2y ago
Do note that enemies can also pick up that old equipment and use it against you. I lost a promising character during the last November NetHack Tournament [1] because a gnome picked up a wand of fire from someone’s grave and blasted me with it. Yeah that’s another difference. When you play NetHack online [2] [3] you run into the ghosts and graves of other players, not just your own previous characters. I have run into levels online with the ghosts of 3 different people who were all killed by various dangerous monsters that kept accumulating more powerful equipment from each victim. It can be quite ridiculous! [1] https://tnnt.org/ https://tnnt.org/ [2] https://alt.org/nethack/ https://alt.org/nethack/ [3] https://www.hardfought.org/ https://www.hardfought.org/

Nifty3929 2y ago

Not sure I quite agree - I think it's fine to have "persistent upgrades that smooth over repetitive parts of the game" within the proper roguelike genre, as long as they don't make the run easier. Gungeon is an example, with unlocks for skipping lower levels once you have demonstrated sufficient mastery that they're merely time-wasters rather than adding to the challenge.