8 ms·

America's arrested rather a large number of people in recent weeks—university students, mostly—for expressing viewpoints on the I/P conflict. The current Admini

America's arrested rather a large number of people in recent weeks—university students, mostly—for expressing viewpoints on the I/P conflict. The current Administration is claiming, and no one's yet stopped them, that First Amendment rights don't apply to non-citizens such as international students. - "You’re not arrested for posting this" For what it's worth, it's widely reported that ICE is trawling social media to find targets (targeted for their speech/viewpoints). HN itself is one of their known targets.

bcrosby95 2y ago
It doesn't matter if they're citizens or not if the government is skipping court thus not being required to prove it either way. Then when they oopsie you to another country they have to at least try to pretend to get you back but the courts need to show "deference owed to the executive branch in the conduct of foreign affairs". Which is a long way of saying the executive can blackhole anyone it wants to a foreign country and no one is going to do anything because god forbid we step on the executive's role to give up people in our country to other countries.
- aeternum 2y ago
  >Which is a long way of saying the executive can blackhole anyone it wants Do you have examples of the executive doing this to citizens or are you being hypothetical here? Countries generally grant far fewer rights to non-citizens. Have you considered how allowing non-citizens to spread discontent within a country could be abused?
  - perihelions 2y ago
    - "Do you have examples of the executive doing this to citizens or are you being hypothetical here?" "Do you have examples of this severity-11 CVE being used in the wild, or are you just being hypothetical here?" It's a horrifically exploitable bug, were it left unpatched. It's not some fringe conspiracy theory that this is how the law works and how the law would work on contact with US citizens; the Garcia SCOTUS concurrence explicitly underscored this perversity, - "The Government’s argument, moreover, implies that it could deport and incarcerate any person, including U.S. citizens [sic!], without legal consequence, so long as it does so before a court can intervene... That view refutes itself." https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf
  - packetlost 2y ago
    Here's the executive branch getting ordered by SCOTUS to bring someone back for doing just that: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62gnzzeg34o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62gnzzeg34o
    - gs17 2y ago
      They were asking about it happening to citizens. From your article: > Mr Garcia, a Salvadoran
      - miltonlost 2y ago
        He's a permanent resident. Splitting hairs over citizenship when he was here legally massively misses the problem with blackholing people here legally.
        georgemcbay 2y ago
        > Splitting hairs over citizenship when he was here legally massively misses the problem with blackholing people here legally. And on top of that this case should be horrifying to anyone regardless of whether they want to split hairs because: A) they admitted he was deported in error B) they are now effectively trying to argue there is no way to get him back So even if you believe they would never knowingly do this to an actual citizen they are only one slightly different mistake from disappearing a citizen, whether or not it has happened yet. Nevermind the fact that Trump himself has repeatedly floated the idea of deporting citizens: https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2025/04/10/trump-deportation-us-citizens-legal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2025/04/10/trump-... And then lastly and most importantly IMO it is wildly un-American to believe anyone (regardless of citizenship or legal status) is not entitled to due process.
        smcin 2y ago
        He's *not* a permanent resident; he's on "withholding of removal" status since 2019 [*]. It's not splitting hairs to discuss that, but you're right that the govt is (deliberately) pursuing a "camel's-nose-under-the-tent" approach first on a small class of people where Congress and INA haven't defined a direct clear path to PR or becoming a citizen, unlike a GC would since both his wife and child are US citizens. He was granted "withholding of removal" status in 2019, which protected him from deportation to El Salvador (for fear of gang violence/extortion, which is why he came to the US). The current DOJ acknowledges that at the time (2019) the "[first Trump admin] government did not appeal that decision [to grant withholding of removal], so it is final". It also seems like they never previously made any allegation that he was a gang member, and that they don't have any solid proof now that he is (other than supposedly one informant who incorrectly claimed Garcia lived in NY, so basically no credible evidence whatsoever). By jumping the gun on deporting Garcia without due process, the current admin seems to unwittingly be forcing the issue to the Supreme Court very soon. (UPDATE: SC has just ruled unanimously 9-0 that the admin must try to release Garcia.) Looks like the SC's going to be very busy this May-June. [*] Withholding-of-removal is a pretty rare status, rarely granted by court (>99% rejection rate), much rarer than Green Card, and applicants have to demonstrate credible fear. [0] This procedure is defined in INA § 208 (INA = Immigration and Nationality Act) [1] As of 12/2024 there were over 100,000 individuals (from Cuba, China, Venezuela, Mauritania, Nigeria, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, etc.) with orders of removal remaining free in the US due to various special interest statuses, including withholding of removal, according to a report from FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform). [2] (Does anyone have stats on what historically happened to people in withholding-of-removal (what % became citizens, what % got GC, what % voluntarily left, what % got deported, what % moved to a different status etc.)?) [0]: https://www.justice.gov/eoir/reference-materials/ic/chapter-7/4 https://www.justice.gov/eoir/reference-materials/ic/chapter-... [1]: https://www.uscis.gov/laws-and-policy/legislation/immigration-and-nationality-act https://www.uscis.gov/laws-and-policy/legislation/immigratio... [2]: https://www.fairus.org/news/executive/new-data-show-over-100000-special-interest-aliens-have-orders-removal-remain-free-us https://www.fairus.org/news/executive/new-data-show-over-100... [3]: https://time.com/7276642/kilmar-albrego-garcia-error-deportation-el-salvador-prison-supreme-court-return-ms-13/ https://time.com/7276642/kilmar-albrego-garcia-error-deporta...
  - efnx 2y ago
    What about that guy who got deported to El Salvador even though he was legally here and the court had also ordered he not be sent back to El Salvador for his own protection? I’m pretty sure the admin admitted it was a mistake then refused to bring him back.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      The Supreme Court resolutely batted that down 9-0 in a few days. >> The [District Court] order properly requires the Government to “facilitate” Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador. The intended scope of the term “effectuate” in the District Court’s order is, however, unclear, and may exceed the District Court’s authority. The District Court should clarify its directive, with due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs. For its part, the Government should be prepared to share what it can concerning the steps it has taken and the prospect of further steps. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf The only question at this point is how detailed in demands the District Court can be. The administration attempted to push the boundaries of executive power and lost in court, as has been happening. Turns out, conservative justices with lifetime appointments aren't too legally thrilled about an unbridled executive either.
      - passive 2y ago
        This order was toothless, and the administration has already flouted it. All John Roberts is doing is asking Trump to go further next time. Whether it's intentional or just cowardice on his part doesn't really matter to the rest of us.
        ethbr1 2y ago
        It matter to me, since there are 2-3 conservative justices on the current Supreme Court that are likely to tire of administration excesses. A long game player might even say Roberts is angling for that, by tailoring consensus opinions that nonetheless leave room for the administration to demonstrate further stupidity.
  - zzrrt 2y ago
    > Do you have examples of the executive doing this to citizens Feels like moving the goalposts. First they were going to clear out "illegals" by any means, now the line includes any non-citizens. Granted maybe you personally didn't say both though. > Have you considered how allowing non-citizens to spread discontent within a country could be abused? Is it meaningfully different from allowing citizens to "spread discontent"? Why not just start taking everybody's 1st amendment rights, by the same logic? I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there's long precedent that non-citizens are granted most of the same rights, including freedom of speech and assembly. If non-citizens are being supported, instructed, etc by their government in spreading discontent, there are probably laws like espionage for that; you don't have to take away everybody else's freedom to stop them.
  - cmurf 2y ago
    Does the Constitution provide for due process to persons? Or only citizens? If non-citizen have been human trafficked without due process, what additional protection against it is provided to citizens? Where is that stated?
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    I am aware of some US citizens being deported by mistake under previous administrations, but there was a general consensus that those were genuine mistakes, examples of negligence rather than policy: https://immigrationimpact.com/2021/07/30/ice-deport-us-citizens/ https://immigrationimpact.com/2021/07/30/ice-deport-us-citiz... However the current administration is explicitly considering the idea of deliberately deporting citizens: https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/deadline-legal-blog/trump-leavitt-deporting-us-citizens-el-salvador-sotomayor-rcna200299 https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/deadline-legal-bl...
  - Braxton1980 2y ago
    >Countries generally grant far fewer rights to non-citizens. Have you considered how allowing non-citizens to spread discontent within a country could be abused? The most powerful person in the country lied and still is lying about elected fraud, undermining the basis for our Democratic system and was rewarded with a 2nd term.
_Algernon_ 2y ago
Not great but still better than defenestration I guess.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- pydry 2y ago
  Well, it's not like they were Boeing whistleblowers or leaked video footage of a war crime.
elcritch 2y ago
I've seen a few news articles on arrests and the headlines are attention grabbing "Ivy League Student arrested for protesting" and it's worrisome to see. However then buried in the article is something like they overstayed their visa, etc. Take a sibling comment's link to an article with a "second student arrested" in the title. As in that seems like there isn't a "large number". This is nothing like the reports of arrests in Russia. Especially as some of these pro-Palestinian protestors advocate violence or intifada pretty freely. I've seen that with my own eyes. If I were a foreign national protesting and advocating for violence against any other country or people group I'd expect to be denied a visa or possibly deported for participating in such events. It'd be arrogant not to expect that outcome IMHO. Visa applications in European Union countries often include things such as "indicators of good civil behavior". Take the quotes from that sibling comment's linked BBC article: > The DHS statement says that Ms Kordia had overstayed her student visa, which had been terminated in 2022 "for lack of attendance". It did not say whether she had been attending Columbia or another institution. > She had previously been arrested in April 2024 for taking part in protests at Columbia University, according to DHS. > "It is a privilege to be granted a visa to live and study in the United States of America," said Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem in a statement. > "When you advocate for violence and terrorism that privilege should be revoked, and you should not be in this country."
- colanderman 2y ago
  Rumeysa Ozturk did not overstay her visa nor advocate violence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%96zt%C3%BCrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%... Nor did Rasha Alawieh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Rasha_Alawieh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Rasha_Alawieh
  - elcritch 2y ago
    And cases like Rumeysa Ozturk's are different. I also believe DHS should have to abide by the courts as well. Her case is also getting national and international attention and legal help.
maeil 2y ago
Chris Krebs just yesterday had his security clearance revoked solely for saying the 2020 election was fair and not rigged. His coworkers at SentinelOne (almost certainly most of who are citizens) also had their clearances revoked, despite never speaking out on the topic, purely as a North Korea style "punish the whole family" approach to strike fear into people of guilt by association, so that those who have spoken out in any shape or form become social pariahs. Citizens having their career taken away for saying an election wasn't rigged, or for happening to work at the same place as someone who said this. If you think the status quo hasn't yet changed to "In countries like China, Russia and the US, speaking out against the government puts both your livelihood and that of those in your vicinity at serious risk", you're dead wrong.
- wtf_is_this 2y ago
  In case anyone is curious about this (as I was) here's an article: https://www.csoonline.com/article/3958808/trump-revokes-security-clearances-for-chris-krebs-sentinelone-in-problematic-precedent-for-security-vendors.html https://www.csoonline.com/article/3958808/trump-revokes-secu...
  - OrvalWintermute 2y ago
    There are many reasons to question Krebs’ tenure and not all of them have to do with ignoring the state of election security, The Disinformation regime, viewpoint discrimination, or election interference. There is a list of things
    - nobunaga 2y ago
      And what are they? Because unlike you, Chris has a very well known, positive, respected reputation in the industry. Instead of just making accusations, back them up.
      - OrvalWintermute 2y ago
        I’m not doxxing myself. However many of my issues with CISA are based on my own professional work in security, and that of accomplished professors like J Halderman & M Blaze saying our election infrastructure is insecure. We’ve been saying the same thing in hackerdom for 30 years! If my career has been completely about the security of federal & military systems, then some lawyer like Krebs saying our infrastructure is secure when it’s running Windows 7 is a giant slap in the face, particularly given all of the censorship. You wanted evidence. Here goes: The censorship & viewpoint discrimination pressure CISA was bringing to bear has been over the top. At the same time Krebs was talking about how secure our election infrastructure was, prominent professors such as Matt Blaze & J Halderman that have researched election security said the opposite. This historically has been a bipartisan& Aceademic issue with more Dems & Repubs & Academia supporting claims of insecurity. Those of us in security are convinced that all this unpatched windows7 usage is crazy and Chris Krebs lying about election security isn’t being open and truthful with the American people. https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/republicans-judiciary.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/cisa-staff-report6-26-23.pdf https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/republicans-j... - The Associated Press reported in 2019 on the use of vulnerable Windows 7 software in election systems, highlighting risks in swing states. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/new-election-systems-use-vulnerable-software[](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/new-election-systems-use-vulnerable-software) https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/new-election-systems-u... - NBC News revealed in 2020 that ES&S installed modems in voting machines, making them susceptible to hacking. [Note: The exact NBC News article from January 2020 titled "Voting Machines Vulnerable to Hacking Due to Modems" is not directly linked in the web results, but this matches the description in the thread. The full URL is not available in the provided web results, and I cannot search for it in real-time. You may need to look up the NBC News article from January 2020 for the precise link.] - The Guardian exposed in 2015 that WinVote machines used weak passwords like "abcde," easily hackable from a distance. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/15/virginia-voting-machines-password-hack-security[](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/15/virginia-hacking-voting-machines-security) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/15/virginia-vot... - The New York Times reported in 2015 on a leaked database of 191 million voter records, raising concerns about phishing and identity theft. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/us/politics/voting-records-released-privacy-concerns.html[](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/us/politics/voting-records-released-privacy-concerns.html) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/us/politics/voting-record... - Wired noted in 2016 that many voting machines ran on outdated Windows XP, lacking security patches since 2014. https://www.wired.com/2016/08/americas-voting-machines-arent-ready-election/ https://www.wired.com/2016/08/americas-voting-machines-arent... - Politico detailed in 2016 how a voting machine was hacked in minutes by replacing ROM chips with malicious firmware. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/2016-elections-russia-hack-how-to-hack-an-election-in-seven-minutes-214144/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/2016-electio... - CBS reported in 2016 that hackers demonstrated voting machine vulnerabilities, showing a $15 hack could alter votes. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hacker-demonstrates-how-voting-machines-can-be-compromised/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hacker-demonstrates-how-voting-... - ABC News confirmed in 2016 that voting machines can be hacked, especially in close elections, with malware erasing itself post-attack. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hack-election-experts-russia/story?id=41548692 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hack-election-experts-russia... - The Atlantic warned in 2016 about electronic voting risks, citing a case where a machine was turned into a Pac-Man console. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/08/electronic-voting-undermine-election/497588/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/08/elect... - FOX News covered a 2016 demonstration by a Princeton professor hacking a voting machine to shift votes undetected. https://www.foxnews.com/video/5126932108001 https://www.foxnews.com/video/5126932108001 - Fortune reported in 2016 that Cylance researchers hacked a Sequoia AVC Edge machine, altering vote counts via a memory card. https://fortune.com/2016/11/04/voting-machine-hack-demonstration/ https://fortune.com/2016/11/04/voting-machine-hack-demonstra... - Vox highlighted in 2016 that voting machines on Windows XP and voter databases online were vulnerable to hacking. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/7/134 https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/7/134 educed/hackers-election-day-voting-machines - PBS noted in 2016 that five states used digital voting systems without paper trails, increasing hacking risks. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/heres-how-hackers-might-mess-with-electronic-voting-on-election-day https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/heres-how-hackers-migh... - Slate reported in 2016 that 42 states used decade-old voting machines, prone to hacking and lacking paper trails. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/11/our-decrepit-voting-machines-are-a-disaster-waiting-to-happen.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/11/our-decrepit-vot... - PBS revealed in 2016 that Pennsylvania's paperless machines made it impossible to verify vote tampering. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/recounts-no-u-s-elections-still-vulnerable-hacking https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/recounts-no-u-s-electi... - Politico warned in 2016 that 15 states, including Pennsylvania, used electronic voting machines without paper trails. https://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/us-elections-hacking-vulnerabilities-232989 https://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/us-elections-hacking-... - Scientific American stated in 2017 that voting systems could be hacked by foreign powers, advocating for paper ballots. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/our-voting-system-is-hackable-by-foreign-powers/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/our-voting-system... - Politico reported in 2017 on a Georgia election center's server misconfiguration, exposing voter data and passwords. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/14/will-the-georgia-special-election-get-hacked-215255/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/14/will-the-... - NPR cited a 2017 NSA report on Russian attempts to hack election systems, potentially targeting ballot programming. https://www.npr.org/2017/06/14/532824838/if-voting-machines-were-hacked-would-anyone-know https://www.npr.org/2017/06/14/532824838/if-voting-machines-... - HuffPost noted in 2017 that 15 states used hackable touch-screen voting machines without paper trails. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voting-machines-hackable_n_5960f574e4b07b5e1d4f2e5e https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voting-machines-hackable_n_59... - Senator Elizabeth Warren's 2019 article highlighted vulnerabilities like outdated voter databases and paperless machines. https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/strengthening-our-democracy https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/strengthening-our-democrac... - Senators Warren, Klobuchar, Wyden, and Pocan sent letters in 2019 to voting machine companies about security concerns. [Note: The direct link to the letters is not provided in the web results. These letters were sent to the private equity firms owning voting machine companies, as noted in the thread. You may need to search for "Warren Klobuchar Wyden Pocan voting machine letters 2019" to find the original source, possibly on a government or senator's website.] - A 2019 compilation of media articles detailed election system vulnerabilities over four years post-2016 election. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/new-election-systems-use-vulnerable-software https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/new-election-syste...
XorNot 2y ago
Yes but that was after the American people voted for an administration which explicitly ran on a platform of "we will do exactly that". The attempted framing is as government oppression by "the elites", but half the country - the regular people - they're all for this.
- BrawnyBadger53 2y ago
  Median voters voted for Trump because they wanted a regime change after feeling the economic shock of covid. This is the trend across basically every democratic country. Polls on the issue itself show that this split is not 50/50 though the actual number escapes me.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

bcrosby95 2y ago

It doesn't matter if they're citizens or not if the government is skipping court thus not being required to prove it either way. Then when they oopsie you to another country they have to at least try to pretend to get you back but the courts need to show "deference owed to the executive branch in the conduct of foreign affairs". Which is a long way of saying the executive can blackhole anyone it wants to a foreign country and no one is going to do anything because god forbid we step on the executive's role to give up people in our country to other countries.

aeternum 2y ago
>Which is a long way of saying the executive can blackhole anyone it wants Do you have examples of the executive doing this to citizens or are you being hypothetical here? Countries generally grant far fewer rights to non-citizens. Have you considered how allowing non-citizens to spread discontent within a country could be abused?
- perihelions 2y ago
  - "Do you have examples of the executive doing this to citizens or are you being hypothetical here?" "Do you have examples of this severity-11 CVE being used in the wild, or are you just being hypothetical here?" It's a horrifically exploitable bug, were it left unpatched. It's not some fringe conspiracy theory that this is how the law works and how the law would work on contact with US citizens; the Garcia SCOTUS concurrence explicitly underscored this perversity, - "The Government’s argument, moreover, implies that it could deport and incarcerate any person, including U.S. citizens [sic!], without legal consequence, so long as it does so before a court can intervene... That view refutes itself." https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf
- packetlost 2y ago
  Here's the executive branch getting ordered by SCOTUS to bring someone back for doing just that: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62gnzzeg34o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62gnzzeg34o
  - gs17 2y ago
    They were asking about it happening to citizens. From your article: > Mr Garcia, a Salvadoran
    - miltonlost 2y ago
      He's a permanent resident. Splitting hairs over citizenship when he was here legally massively misses the problem with blackholing people here legally.
      - georgemcbay 2y ago
        > Splitting hairs over citizenship when he was here legally massively misses the problem with blackholing people here legally. And on top of that this case should be horrifying to anyone regardless of whether they want to split hairs because: A) they admitted he was deported in error B) they are now effectively trying to argue there is no way to get him back So even if you believe they would never knowingly do this to an actual citizen they are only one slightly different mistake from disappearing a citizen, whether or not it has happened yet. Nevermind the fact that Trump himself has repeatedly floated the idea of deporting citizens: https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2025/04/10/trump-deportation-us-citizens-legal/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/immigration/2025/04/10/trump-... And then lastly and most importantly IMO it is wildly un-American to believe anyone (regardless of citizenship or legal status) is not entitled to due process.
      - smcin 2y ago
        He's *not* a permanent resident; he's on "withholding of removal" status since 2019 [*]. It's not splitting hairs to discuss that, but you're right that the govt is (deliberately) pursuing a "camel's-nose-under-the-tent" approach first on a small class of people where Congress and INA haven't defined a direct clear path to PR or becoming a citizen, unlike a GC would since both his wife and child are US citizens. He was granted "withholding of removal" status in 2019, which protected him from deportation to El Salvador (for fear of gang violence/extortion, which is why he came to the US). The current DOJ acknowledges that at the time (2019) the "[first Trump admin] government did not appeal that decision [to grant withholding of removal], so it is final". It also seems like they never previously made any allegation that he was a gang member, and that they don't have any solid proof now that he is (other than supposedly one informant who incorrectly claimed Garcia lived in NY, so basically no credible evidence whatsoever). By jumping the gun on deporting Garcia without due process, the current admin seems to unwittingly be forcing the issue to the Supreme Court very soon. (UPDATE: SC has just ruled unanimously 9-0 that the admin must try to release Garcia.) Looks like the SC's going to be very busy this May-June. [*] Withholding-of-removal is a pretty rare status, rarely granted by court (>99% rejection rate), much rarer than Green Card, and applicants have to demonstrate credible fear. [0] This procedure is defined in INA § 208 (INA = Immigration and Nationality Act) [1] As of 12/2024 there were over 100,000 individuals (from Cuba, China, Venezuela, Mauritania, Nigeria, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, etc.) with orders of removal remaining free in the US due to various special interest statuses, including withholding of removal, according to a report from FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform). [2] (Does anyone have stats on what historically happened to people in withholding-of-removal (what % became citizens, what % got GC, what % voluntarily left, what % got deported, what % moved to a different status etc.)?) [0]: https://www.justice.gov/eoir/reference-materials/ic/chapter-7/4 https://www.justice.gov/eoir/reference-materials/ic/chapter-... [1]: https://www.uscis.gov/laws-and-policy/legislation/immigration-and-nationality-act https://www.uscis.gov/laws-and-policy/legislation/immigratio... [2]: https://www.fairus.org/news/executive/new-data-show-over-100000-special-interest-aliens-have-orders-removal-remain-free-us https://www.fairus.org/news/executive/new-data-show-over-100... [3]: https://time.com/7276642/kilmar-albrego-garcia-error-deportation-el-salvador-prison-supreme-court-return-ms-13/ https://time.com/7276642/kilmar-albrego-garcia-error-deporta...
- efnx 2y ago
  What about that guy who got deported to El Salvador even though he was legally here and the court had also ordered he not be sent back to El Salvador for his own protection? I’m pretty sure the admin admitted it was a mistake then refused to bring him back.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    The Supreme Court resolutely batted that down 9-0 in a few days. >> The [District Court] order properly requires the Government to “facilitate” Abrego Garcia’s release from custody in El Salvador and to ensure that his case is handled as it would have been had he not been improperly sent to El Salvador. The intended scope of the term “effectuate” in the District Court’s order is, however, unclear, and may exceed the District Court’s authority. The District Court should clarify its directive, with due regard for the deference owed to the Executive Branch in the conduct of foreign affairs. For its part, the Government should be prepared to share what it can concerning the steps it has taken and the prospect of further steps. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24a949_lkhn.pdf The only question at this point is how detailed in demands the District Court can be. The administration attempted to push the boundaries of executive power and lost in court, as has been happening. Turns out, conservative justices with lifetime appointments aren't too legally thrilled about an unbridled executive either.
    - passive 2y ago
      This order was toothless, and the administration has already flouted it. All John Roberts is doing is asking Trump to go further next time. Whether it's intentional or just cowardice on his part doesn't really matter to the rest of us.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        It matter to me, since there are 2-3 conservative justices on the current Supreme Court that are likely to tire of administration excesses. A long game player might even say Roberts is angling for that, by tailoring consensus opinions that nonetheless leave room for the administration to demonstrate further stupidity.
- zzrrt 2y ago
  > Do you have examples of the executive doing this to citizens Feels like moving the goalposts. First they were going to clear out "illegals" by any means, now the line includes any non-citizens. Granted maybe you personally didn't say both though. > Have you considered how allowing non-citizens to spread discontent within a country could be abused? Is it meaningfully different from allowing citizens to "spread discontent"? Why not just start taking everybody's 1st amendment rights, by the same logic? I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure there's long precedent that non-citizens are granted most of the same rights, including freedom of speech and assembly. If non-citizens are being supported, instructed, etc by their government in spreading discontent, there are probably laws like espionage for that; you don't have to take away everybody else's freedom to stop them.
- cmurf 2y ago
  Does the Constitution provide for due process to persons? Or only citizens? If non-citizen have been human trafficked without due process, what additional protection against it is provided to citizens? Where is that stated?
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  I am aware of some US citizens being deported by mistake under previous administrations, but there was a general consensus that those were genuine mistakes, examples of negligence rather than policy: https://immigrationimpact.com/2021/07/30/ice-deport-us-citizens/ https://immigrationimpact.com/2021/07/30/ice-deport-us-citiz... However the current administration is explicitly considering the idea of deliberately deporting citizens: https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/deadline-legal-blog/trump-leavitt-deporting-us-citizens-el-salvador-sotomayor-rcna200299 https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/deadline-legal-bl...
- Braxton1980 2y ago
  >Countries generally grant far fewer rights to non-citizens. Have you considered how allowing non-citizens to spread discontent within a country could be abused? The most powerful person in the country lied and still is lying about elected fraud, undermining the basis for our Democratic system and was rewarded with a 2nd term.

_Algernon_ 2y ago

Not great but still better than defenestration I guess.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
pydry 2y ago
Well, it's not like they were Boeing whistleblowers or leaked video footage of a war crime.

elcritch 2y ago

I've seen a few news articles on arrests and the headlines are attention grabbing "Ivy League Student arrested for protesting" and it's worrisome to see. However then buried in the article is something like they overstayed their visa, etc. Take a sibling comment's link to an article with a "second student arrested" in the title. As in that seems like there isn't a "large number". This is nothing like the reports of arrests in Russia. Especially as some of these pro-Palestinian protestors advocate violence or intifada pretty freely. I've seen that with my own eyes. If I were a foreign national protesting and advocating for violence against any other country or people group I'd expect to be denied a visa or possibly deported for participating in such events. It'd be arrogant not to expect that outcome IMHO. Visa applications in European Union countries often include things such as "indicators of good civil behavior". Take the quotes from that sibling comment's linked BBC article: > The DHS statement says that Ms Kordia had overstayed her student visa, which had been terminated in 2022 "for lack of attendance". It did not say whether she had been attending Columbia or another institution. > She had previously been arrested in April 2024 for taking part in protests at Columbia University, according to DHS. > "It is a privilege to be granted a visa to live and study in the United States of America," said Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem in a statement. > "When you advocate for violence and terrorism that privilege should be revoked, and you should not be in this country."

colanderman 2y ago
Rumeysa Ozturk did not overstay her visa nor advocate violence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%96zt%C3%BCrk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detention_of_R%C3%BCmeysa_%C3%... Nor did Rasha Alawieh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Rasha_Alawieh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_Rasha_Alawieh
- elcritch 2y ago
  And cases like Rumeysa Ozturk's are different. I also believe DHS should have to abide by the courts as well. Her case is also getting national and international attention and legal help.

maeil 2y ago

Chris Krebs just yesterday had his security clearance revoked solely for saying the 2020 election was fair and not rigged. His coworkers at SentinelOne (almost certainly most of who are citizens) also had their clearances revoked, despite never speaking out on the topic, purely as a North Korea style "punish the whole family" approach to strike fear into people of guilt by association, so that those who have spoken out in any shape or form become social pariahs. Citizens having their career taken away for saying an election wasn't rigged, or for happening to work at the same place as someone who said this. If you think the status quo hasn't yet changed to "In countries like China, Russia and the US, speaking out against the government puts both your livelihood and that of those in your vicinity at serious risk", you're dead wrong.

wtf_is_this 2y ago
In case anyone is curious about this (as I was) here's an article: https://www.csoonline.com/article/3958808/trump-revokes-security-clearances-for-chris-krebs-sentinelone-in-problematic-precedent-for-security-vendors.html https://www.csoonline.com/article/3958808/trump-revokes-secu...
- OrvalWintermute 2y ago
  There are many reasons to question Krebs’ tenure and not all of them have to do with ignoring the state of election security, The Disinformation regime, viewpoint discrimination, or election interference. There is a list of things
  - nobunaga 2y ago
    And what are they? Because unlike you, Chris has a very well known, positive, respected reputation in the industry. Instead of just making accusations, back them up.
    - OrvalWintermute 2y ago
      I’m not doxxing myself. However many of my issues with CISA are based on my own professional work in security, and that of accomplished professors like J Halderman & M Blaze saying our election infrastructure is insecure. We’ve been saying the same thing in hackerdom for 30 years! If my career has been completely about the security of federal & military systems, then some lawyer like Krebs saying our infrastructure is secure when it’s running Windows 7 is a giant slap in the face, particularly given all of the censorship. You wanted evidence. Here goes: The censorship & viewpoint discrimination pressure CISA was bringing to bear has been over the top. At the same time Krebs was talking about how secure our election infrastructure was, prominent professors such as Matt Blaze & J Halderman that have researched election security said the opposite. This historically has been a bipartisan& Aceademic issue with more Dems & Repubs & Academia supporting claims of insecurity. Those of us in security are convinced that all this unpatched windows7 usage is crazy and Chris Krebs lying about election security isn’t being open and truthful with the American people. https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/republicans-judiciary.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/cisa-staff-report6-26-23.pdf https://judiciary.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/republicans-j... - The Associated Press reported in 2019 on the use of vulnerable Windows 7 software in election systems, highlighting risks in swing states. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/new-election-systems-use-vulnerable-software[](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/new-election-systems-use-vulnerable-software) https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/new-election-systems-u... - NBC News revealed in 2020 that ES&S installed modems in voting machines, making them susceptible to hacking. [Note: The exact NBC News article from January 2020 titled "Voting Machines Vulnerable to Hacking Due to Modems" is not directly linked in the web results, but this matches the description in the thread. The full URL is not available in the provided web results, and I cannot search for it in real-time. You may need to look up the NBC News article from January 2020 for the precise link.] - The Guardian exposed in 2015 that WinVote machines used weak passwords like "abcde," easily hackable from a distance. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/15/virginia-voting-machines-password-hack-security[](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/15/virginia-hacking-voting-machines-security) https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/15/virginia-vot... - The New York Times reported in 2015 on a leaked database of 191 million voter records, raising concerns about phishing and identity theft. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/us/politics/voting-records-released-privacy-concerns.html[](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/us/politics/voting-records-released-privacy-concerns.html) https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/31/us/politics/voting-record... - Wired noted in 2016 that many voting machines ran on outdated Windows XP, lacking security patches since 2014. https://www.wired.com/2016/08/americas-voting-machines-arent-ready-election/ https://www.wired.com/2016/08/americas-voting-machines-arent... - Politico detailed in 2016 how a voting machine was hacked in minutes by replacing ROM chips with malicious firmware. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/2016-elections-russia-hack-how-to-hack-an-election-in-seven-minutes-214144/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/2016-electio... - CBS reported in 2016 that hackers demonstrated voting machine vulnerabilities, showing a $15 hack could alter votes. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hacker-demonstrates-how-voting-machines-can-be-compromised/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hacker-demonstrates-how-voting-... - ABC News confirmed in 2016 that voting machines can be hacked, especially in close elections, with malware erasing itself post-attack. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hack-election-experts-russia/story?id=41548692 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/hack-election-experts-russia... - The Atlantic warned in 2016 about electronic voting risks, citing a case where a machine was turned into a Pac-Man console. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/08/electronic-voting-undermine-election/497588/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/08/elect... - FOX News covered a 2016 demonstration by a Princeton professor hacking a voting machine to shift votes undetected. https://www.foxnews.com/video/5126932108001 https://www.foxnews.com/video/5126932108001 - Fortune reported in 2016 that Cylance researchers hacked a Sequoia AVC Edge machine, altering vote counts via a memory card. https://fortune.com/2016/11/04/voting-machine-hack-demonstration/ https://fortune.com/2016/11/04/voting-machine-hack-demonstra... - Vox highlighted in 2016 that voting machines on Windows XP and voter databases online were vulnerable to hacking. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/7/134 https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/11/7/134 educed/hackers-election-day-voting-machines - PBS noted in 2016 that five states used digital voting systems without paper trails, increasing hacking risks. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/heres-how-hackers-might-mess-with-electronic-voting-on-election-day https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/heres-how-hackers-migh... - Slate reported in 2016 that 42 states used decade-old voting machines, prone to hacking and lacking paper trails. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/11/our-decrepit-voting-machines-are-a-disaster-waiting-to-happen.html https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2016/11/our-decrepit-vot... - PBS revealed in 2016 that Pennsylvania's paperless machines made it impossible to verify vote tampering. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/recounts-no-u-s-elections-still-vulnerable-hacking https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/recounts-no-u-s-electi... - Politico warned in 2016 that 15 states, including Pennsylvania, used electronic voting machines without paper trails. https://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/us-elections-hacking-vulnerabilities-232989 https://www.politico.com/story/2016/12/us-elections-hacking-... - Scientific American stated in 2017 that voting systems could be hacked by foreign powers, advocating for paper ballots. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/our-voting-system-is-hackable-by-foreign-powers/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/our-voting-system... - Politico reported in 2017 on a Georgia election center's server misconfiguration, exposing voter data and passwords. https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/14/will-the-georgia-special-election-get-hacked-215255/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/14/will-the-... - NPR cited a 2017 NSA report on Russian attempts to hack election systems, potentially targeting ballot programming. https://www.npr.org/2017/06/14/532824838/if-voting-machines-were-hacked-would-anyone-know https://www.npr.org/2017/06/14/532824838/if-voting-machines-... - HuffPost noted in 2017 that 15 states used hackable touch-screen voting machines without paper trails. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voting-machines-hackable_n_5960f574e4b07b5e1d4f2e5e https://www.huffpost.com/entry/voting-machines-hackable_n_59... - Senator Elizabeth Warren's 2019 article highlighted vulnerabilities like outdated voter databases and paperless machines. https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/strengthening-our-democracy https://elizabethwarren.com/plans/strengthening-our-democrac... - Senators Warren, Klobuchar, Wyden, and Pocan sent letters in 2019 to voting machine companies about security concerns. [Note: The direct link to the letters is not provided in the web results. These letters were sent to the private equity firms owning voting machine companies, as noted in the thread. You may need to search for "Warren Klobuchar Wyden Pocan voting machine letters 2019" to find the original source, possibly on a government or senator's website.] - A 2019 compilation of media articles detailed election system vulnerabilities over four years post-2016 election. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/new-election-systems-use-vulnerable-software https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/politics/new-election-syste...

XorNot 2y ago

Yes but that was after the American people voted for an administration which explicitly ran on a platform of "we will do exactly that". The attempted framing is as government oppression by "the elites", but half the country - the regular people - they're all for this.

BrawnyBadger53 2y ago
Median voters voted for Trump because they wanted a regime change after feeling the economic shock of covid. This is the trend across basically every democratic country. Polls on the issue itself show that this split is not 50/50 though the actual number escapes me.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]