4 ms·

I have observed a sharp disconnect in the philosophies of 'improving developer experience' and 'running a tight ship'. I think the last twenty years of quasi-m

I have observed a sharp disconnect in the philosophies of 'improving developer experience' and 'running a tight ship'. I think the last twenty years of quasi-marketing/sales/recruiting DevRel roles have pushed a narrative of frictionless development, while on the flip side security and correctness have mostly taken a back seat (special industries aside). I think it's a result of the massive market growth, but I so welcome the pendulum swinging back a little bit. Typo squatting packages being a concern at the same time as speculative execution exploits shows mind bending immaturity.

psadauskas 2y ago
"Security" and "Convenience" is always a tradeoff, you can never have both.
- bluGill 2y ago
  Ture. Then the Convenience folks don't understand why the rest of us don't want the things they think are so great. There are good middle grounds, but most package managers don't even acknowledge other concerns as valid.
- benterix 2y ago
  This is obvious, the question here is why everybody traded security for convenience and what else has to happen for people to start taking security seriously.
  - ziddoap 2y ago
    >the question here is why everybody traded security for convenience I don't think security was traded away for convenience. Everything started with convenience, and security has been trying to gain ground ever since. >happen for people to start taking security seriously Law with enforced and non-trivial consequences are the only thing that will force people to take security seriously. And even then, most probably still wont.
  - vladms 2y ago
    Regarding "what else has to happen": I would say something catastrophic. Nothing comes to mind recently. Security is good, but occasionally I wonder if technical people don't imagine fantastic scenarios of evil masterminds doing something with the data and manage to rule the world. While in reality, at least the last 5 years there are so many leaders (and people) doing and saying so plainly stupid that I feel we should be more afraid of stupid people than of hackers.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      In the last 5 years several major medical providers have had sensitive person data of nearly everyone compromised. The political leaders are biggest problem today, but that could change again.
      - vladms 2y ago
        And what is the actual impact? Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is not bad, but then again abusing information could be done already by the said providers (ex: hike insurance rates based on previous conditions, taking advantage of vulnerable people). Society works by agreements and laws, not by (absolute) secrecy. There are of course instances like electrical grid stopping for days, people being killed remotely in hospitals, nuclear plants exploding, that would have a different impact and we might get there, just that it did not happen yet.
        Tijdreiziger 2y ago
        The actual impact is that your private medical data is in the hands of thieves, which most people don’t want. It’s similar to how most people are distressed after a break-in, because they considered their home to be a private space, even though the lock manufacturer never claimed 100% security (or the thieves simply bypassed the locks by smashing a window). Agreements and laws don’t solve that problem, because thieves already aren’t stopped by those.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  It's not quite a straight trade; IIRC the OpenBSD folks really push on good docs and maybe good defaults precisely because making it easier to hold the tool right makes it safer.
- cyrnel 2y ago
  I've seen this more formalized as a triangle, with "functionality" being the third point: https://blog.c3l-security.com/2019/06/balancing-functionality-usability-and.html?m=1 https://blog.c3l-security.com/2019/06/balancing-functionalit... You can get secure and easy-to-use tools, but they typically have to be really simple things.
phkahler 2y ago
I think that's a consequence of programmers making tools for programmers. It's something I've come to really dislike. Programmers are used to doing things like editing configurations, setting environment variables, or using custom code to solve a problem. As a result you get programs that can be configured, customized through code (scripting or extensions), and little tools to do whatever. This is not IMHO how good software should be designed to be used. On the positive side, we have some really good tooling - revision control in the software world is way beyond the equivalent in any other field. But then git could be used in other fields if not for it being a programmers tool designed by programmers... A lot of developers even have trouble doing things with git that are outside their daily use cases. Dependency management tools are tools that come about because it's easier and more natural for a programmer to write some code than solve a bigger problem. Easier to write a tool than write your own version of something or clean up a complex set of dependencies.

psadauskas 2y ago

"Security" and "Convenience" is always a tradeoff, you can never have both.

bluGill 2y ago
Ture. Then the Convenience folks don't understand why the rest of us don't want the things they think are so great. There are good middle grounds, but most package managers don't even acknowledge other concerns as valid.
benterix 2y ago
This is obvious, the question here is why everybody traded security for convenience and what else has to happen for people to start taking security seriously.
- ziddoap 2y ago
  >the question here is why everybody traded security for convenience I don't think security was traded away for convenience. Everything started with convenience, and security has been trying to gain ground ever since. >happen for people to start taking security seriously Law with enforced and non-trivial consequences are the only thing that will force people to take security seriously. And even then, most probably still wont.
- vladms 2y ago
  Regarding "what else has to happen": I would say something catastrophic. Nothing comes to mind recently. Security is good, but occasionally I wonder if technical people don't imagine fantastic scenarios of evil masterminds doing something with the data and manage to rule the world. While in reality, at least the last 5 years there are so many leaders (and people) doing and saying so plainly stupid that I feel we should be more afraid of stupid people than of hackers.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    In the last 5 years several major medical providers have had sensitive person data of nearly everyone compromised. The political leaders are biggest problem today, but that could change again.
    - vladms 2y ago
      And what is the actual impact? Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is not bad, but then again abusing information could be done already by the said providers (ex: hike insurance rates based on previous conditions, taking advantage of vulnerable people). Society works by agreements and laws, not by (absolute) secrecy. There are of course instances like electrical grid stopping for days, people being killed remotely in hospitals, nuclear plants exploding, that would have a different impact and we might get there, just that it did not happen yet.
      - Tijdreiziger 2y ago
        The actual impact is that your private medical data is in the hands of thieves, which most people don’t want. It’s similar to how most people are distressed after a break-in, because they considered their home to be a private space, even though the lock manufacturer never claimed 100% security (or the thieves simply bypassed the locks by smashing a window). Agreements and laws don’t solve that problem, because thieves already aren’t stopped by those.
yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
It's not quite a straight trade; IIRC the OpenBSD folks really push on good docs and maybe good defaults precisely because making it easier to hold the tool right makes it safer.
cyrnel 2y ago
I've seen this more formalized as a triangle, with "functionality" being the third point: https://blog.c3l-security.com/2019/06/balancing-functionality-usability-and.html?m=1 https://blog.c3l-security.com/2019/06/balancing-functionalit... You can get secure and easy-to-use tools, but they typically have to be really simple things.

phkahler 2y ago

I think that's a consequence of programmers making tools for programmers. It's something I've come to really dislike. Programmers are used to doing things like editing configurations, setting environment variables, or using custom code to solve a problem. As a result you get programs that can be configured, customized through code (scripting or extensions), and little tools to do whatever. This is not IMHO how good software should be designed to be used. On the positive side, we have some really good tooling - revision control in the software world is way beyond the equivalent in any other field. But then git could be used in other fields if not for it being a programmers tool designed by programmers... A lot of developers even have trouble doing things with git that are outside their daily use cases. Dependency management tools are tools that come about because it's easier and more natural for a programmer to write some code than solve a bigger problem. Easier to write a tool than write your own version of something or clean up a complex set of dependencies.