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Most of those subs linked are from direct negotations from the state, and they are in the form of tax incentives, not cash in account. How are you going to use

Most of those subs linked are from direct negotations from the state, and they are in the form of tax incentives, not cash in account. How are you going to use that against a company that nevada agreed to give them X amount of tax incentives over a year if they build a giga factory there? Using that as a justification that "tesla only lives because of tax payer money" is ridiculous. Also, poking around the SpaceX data just seems entirely false too. The biggest 'loan' of $98M to spaceX for "Missle technology development". And when you follow the authorizations it was just a firm fixed price contract.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
I am not here to talk you out of your mental model around the cult of Elon. His companies have received almost $40B in various forms of government support, those are the facts. He is a skilled operator, able to whip teams of engineers to success and distort reality persuasively to customers and investors alike, but his ventures would not have survived without the government support he’s received.
- timschmidt 2y ago
  Phone me when someone else lands an orbital class rocket or offers a cheaper ton to LEO. Until then you're complaining about the lowest bidder. And you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the lowest bidder is doing anything but saving their customers money on a service they were already intent on purchasing, and had previously been spending 2x - 10x for: https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/753q6s/economic_comparison_of_american_orbital_launch/#lightbox https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/753q6s/economic_comp...
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    I don’t have to convince you. The only people who matter are government decisionmakers who are unwilling to be held hostage by him. It doesn’t matter how good you are if you can’t be trusted. The premium you pay a non SpaceX launch provider is so that the rug isn’t pulled on you. Do you want to go to space when you want? Or only when he says you can? Cheaper is not always better.
    - timschmidt 2y ago
      Friend, when your argument evaporates in the presence of the financial numbers and you revert to character assassination, you might be identifying yourself among the untrustworthy. Bad faith arguments really undermine any trust I could build for you through this media. > The premium you pay a non SpaceX launch provider is so that the rug isn’t pulled on you. Cheaper is not always better. Again, when one of them manages to land an orbital class rocket, call me. Competition would be great.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        He assassinated his own character, my statements are simply observations of how he did it and what’s left of it. My apologies we see character and who you can trust differently. https://electrek.co/2025/04/10/cracks-are-forming-in-elon-musks-armor-of-lies/ https://electrek.co/2025/04/10/cracks-are-forming-in-elon-mu... https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-elon-musk-is-spreading-us-election-lies/a-70663408 https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-elon-musk-is-spreading-... https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-lists/elon-musk-twitter-zuckerberg-lies-1234808808/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-lists/elon-musk... https://elonmusk.today/ https://elonmusk.today/
        timschmidt 2y ago
        You are doing humanity no favors arguing about it like this.
- TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
  Let's not forget he SUED to get SpaceX contracts from the big defense contractors. The GAO was the one who upheld the protest due to the vast price disperities. "but his ventures would not have survived without the government support he’s received." Including firm fixed price contracts the company has won from the government for providing essential services is not a good argument. SpaceX's main customer is governments... thats how rocket companies work. Comparing Tesla’s support to other industries reveals a double standard. The fossil fuel industry has received trillions in subsidies globally over decades (e.g., IMF estimates $5.9T in 2020 alone for fossil fuel subsidies). General Motors and Chrysler received $80B in bailouts during the 2008 financial crisis. consumer tax credits benefit buyers, not Tesla directly, though they boost demand. Subsidies for infrastructure like Gigafactories are standard for large-scale industrial projects and not unique to Tesla. It seems i can't be the one to talk you out of your mental model of hating elon.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

I am not here to talk you out of your mental model around the cult of Elon. His companies have received almost $40B in various forms of government support, those are the facts. He is a skilled operator, able to whip teams of engineers to success and distort reality persuasively to customers and investors alike, but his ventures would not have survived without the government support he’s received.

timschmidt 2y ago
Phone me when someone else lands an orbital class rocket or offers a cheaper ton to LEO. Until then you're complaining about the lowest bidder. And you're going to have a hard time convincing me that the lowest bidder is doing anything but saving their customers money on a service they were already intent on purchasing, and had previously been spending 2x - 10x for: https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/753q6s/economic_comparison_of_american_orbital_launch/#lightbox https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comments/753q6s/economic_comp...
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  I don’t have to convince you. The only people who matter are government decisionmakers who are unwilling to be held hostage by him. It doesn’t matter how good you are if you can’t be trusted. The premium you pay a non SpaceX launch provider is so that the rug isn’t pulled on you. Do you want to go to space when you want? Or only when he says you can? Cheaper is not always better.
  - timschmidt 2y ago
    Friend, when your argument evaporates in the presence of the financial numbers and you revert to character assassination, you might be identifying yourself among the untrustworthy. Bad faith arguments really undermine any trust I could build for you through this media. > The premium you pay a non SpaceX launch provider is so that the rug isn’t pulled on you. Cheaper is not always better. Again, when one of them manages to land an orbital class rocket, call me. Competition would be great.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      He assassinated his own character, my statements are simply observations of how he did it and what’s left of it. My apologies we see character and who you can trust differently. https://electrek.co/2025/04/10/cracks-are-forming-in-elon-musks-armor-of-lies/ https://electrek.co/2025/04/10/cracks-are-forming-in-elon-mu... https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-elon-musk-is-spreading-us-election-lies/a-70663408 https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-how-elon-musk-is-spreading-... https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-lists/elon-musk-twitter-zuckerberg-lies-1234808808/ https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-lists/elon-musk... https://elonmusk.today/ https://elonmusk.today/
      - timschmidt 2y ago
        You are doing humanity no favors arguing about it like this.
TrapLord_Rhodo 2y ago
Let's not forget he SUED to get SpaceX contracts from the big defense contractors. The GAO was the one who upheld the protest due to the vast price disperities. "but his ventures would not have survived without the government support he’s received." Including firm fixed price contracts the company has won from the government for providing essential services is not a good argument. SpaceX's main customer is governments... thats how rocket companies work. Comparing Tesla’s support to other industries reveals a double standard. The fossil fuel industry has received trillions in subsidies globally over decades (e.g., IMF estimates $5.9T in 2020 alone for fossil fuel subsidies). General Motors and Chrysler received $80B in bailouts during the 2008 financial crisis. consumer tax credits benefit buyers, not Tesla directly, though they boost demand. Subsidies for infrastructure like Gigafactories are standard for large-scale industrial projects and not unique to Tesla. It seems i can't be the one to talk you out of your mental model of hating elon.