4 ms·

Thank you for confirming, especially at such effort, when a simple "No, I haven't; I just spend too much time uncritically reading feminism Twitter," would have

Thank you for confirming, especially at such effort, when a simple "No, I haven't; I just spend too much time uncritically reading feminism Twitter," would have amply sufficed. There's an honesty to this response in spite of itself, and in spite of itself I respect that.

Balgair 2y ago
I sincerely have no idea if any of your comments in this thread are sarcastic or not. (This comment is also not sarcastic FYI). Generally, I also agree that Heinlein's characters are one dimensional and could benefit from greater character growth, though that was a bit of a hallmark of Golden Age sci-fi.
- throwanem 2y ago
  "Teenage boy wish fulfillment" is well beneath any reasonable standard of criticism, and I've addressed that with about as much respect as it deserves. There is much worthy of critique in Heinlein, especially in his depiction of women. I've spent about a quarter century off and on both reading and formulating such critiques, much more recently than I've spent meaningful time with his fiction. I've also read what he had to say for himself before he died, and what Mrs. Heinlein - she kept the name - said about him after. If we want to talk about, for example, how the themes of maternal incest and specifically feminine embodiment of weakly superhuman AGI in his later work reflect a degree of senescence and the wish for a supercompetent maternal figure to whom to surrender the burden of responsibility, or if we want to talk about how Heinlein seems to spend an enormous amount of time just generally exploring stuff from female characters' perspectives that an honest modern inquiry would recognize as fumbling badly but earnestly in the direction of something like a contemporary understanding of gender, then we could talk about that. No one wants to, though. You can't use anything like that as a stick to beat people with, so it never gets a look in, and those as here who care nothing for anything of the subject save if it looks serviceable as a weapon claim to be the only ones in the talk who are honest. They don't know the man's work well enough to talk about the years he spent selling stories that absolutely revolve around character development, which exist solely to exemplify it! Of course these are universally dismissed as his 'juveniles' - a few letters shy of 'juvenilia' - because science fiction superfans are all children and so are science fiction superhaters, neither of whom knows how to respond in any way better than a tantrum on the rare occasion of being told bluntly it's well past time they grew up. But they're the honest ones. Why not? So it goes. It's a conversation I know better than to try to have, especially on Hacker News; if I don't care for how it's proceeding, I've no one but myself to blame.
n4r9 2y ago
Not sure if it will help me saying this, but that's a disappointingly dismissive and avoidant response well below HN standards. I'm very willing to engage with any counter-arguments in good faith. I don't use Twitter (or Mastodon, or BlueSky, or TikTok, or Facebook, or Threads etc...), but I do enjoy discussing sci fi of different periods on Goodreads groups.
- throwanem 2y ago
  It seems filthy rich of you to claim good faith at this time, but I have recently begun to gather that in some quarters lately, it is considered offensively unreasonable to expect working knowledge of any material as a prerequisite for participating competently in discussion thereof. So though your claim is facially false, I ironically can't fairly consider that it is other than honestly made. Your precepts are in any case your problem. Good luck with it, you Hacker News expert.
  - n4r9 2y ago
    I'd be happy to receive any pointers on how I'm wrong - perhaps I've misinterpreted what I've read, or there are characters in the rest of his work that defy my stance.
    - throwanem 2y ago
      > I'd be happy to receive any pointers on how I'm wrong - perhaps I've misinterpreted what I've read, or there are characters in the rest of his work that defy my stance. If you meant that honestly, you would already have found ample directions for further research, easily enough not to need asking. Everything you claim to want lies just a Google search away, on any of the various and I should hope fairly easily identifiable search terms I have mentioned. "It is not my job to educate you." Or, rather, it would still not be my job even if to learn were what you really want here. You don't, of course. That's why you haven't bothered so much as trying a few searches that might turn up something you would have to pretend to have read. Much easier to try to make me look emotionally unstable - 'defy?' Really. - because you can't actually answer anything I've said and you know it. Good luck with that, too.
n4r9 2y ago
I've now gone through two well-known pieces of critical analysis of Heinlein's work, and found that they broadly (and in places exactly) agree with my initial sentiment. Far from "feminist twitter", they are written by serious science fiction critics during Heinlein's lifetime. Below are some quoations and references. I have yet to find compelling evidence to the contrary in my research. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Heinlein's male characters may be divided into two categories: the competent and the incompetent. The incompetents are of little use in the practical world. They function mainly as caricatures for purposes of contrast, satire, and humor, and include such types as the spoiled brat, the jellyfish father, the pompous blowhard, and the bungling meddler. The competent male characters are divided into two types: the stock competent and the Heinlein hero. > There are a goodly share of failures due to Heinlein's discomfort, and his subsequent exclusion of emotions and arm's-length distancing of the intimate. > The Heinlein heroine ... stands as a—pardon the expression—male chauvinist tribute to the hero, implying that women—even such as the heroine—enjoy being dominated. ... Heinlein himself could not break away from his own emotional attachment to the obedient female. Ronald Sarti. “Variations on a Theme: Human Sexuality in the Work of Robert A. Heinlein.” (1978) https://www.enotes.com/topics/robert-heinlein-61736/criticism/heinlein-robert/criticism/ronald-sarti-essay-date-1978 https://www.enotes.com/topics/robert-heinlein-61736/criticis... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress is totally a story of process rather than character. Heinlein has always been more interested in how machines and societies work than in why people act, and this is probably more true of this novel than any of his others. And it is the center of what is wrong with it as a story ... Heinlein has always had a weakness for forcing emotion, possibly because his characters themselves are unemotional. When Heinlein wants us to approve a character or a position, or to feel moved, instead of giving us a natural emotional reason growing out of the story or, alternatively, underplaying, he is all too likely to try to find a button in us to push. > Heinlein's concern with his religion [in Stranger In A Strange Land] is so great, unfortunately, that he lets all character development go hang. Mike Smith is lessened by his super powers. ... Jubal Harshaw, too, is lessened by his super powers -- doctor, lawyer, etc.; his multiple training seems a gratuitous gift from Heinlein without reason or explanation. He redeems himself somewhat by his crusty nature, but I find him suspect. He is too pat. Some of the minor characters have life at the beginning of the story and then lose it, overcome by the flood of talk that engulfs the last half of the novel. Which secretary sleeps with Mike his first time out? They are so lacking in definition that it is impossible to tell. Jill Boardman supposedly loves Ben Caxton, but won't sleep with him. She will, however, go off around the country with Mike on a sleep-in basis. Why? I can't say. At any time it would not surprise me for her to unscrew her foot and stick it in her ear -- she is capable of anything. Ben Caxton's motivations are equally unclear. > Basically, Heinlein has used the same general characters in story after story, and has kept these characters limited ones. ... There is one unique and vivid human Heinlein character, but he is a composite of Joe-Jim Gregory, Harriman, Waldo, Lazarus Long, Mr. Kiku and many others, rather than any one individual. I call the composite the Heinlein Individual. ... Outside of this Heinlein Individual, there is usually a small supporting cast of side men in any one book. Their most striking feature is their competence, reflecting that of the Heinlein Individual. Beyond that, however, hardly any attempt is made to individualize them, for, after all, they are no more than supporting characters, and if lead characters are not described, what can be expected for less important players? After this small circle, Heinlein ordinarily relies on caricature, and he has a number of set pieces which he produces as needed. Alexei Panshin. "Heinlein In Dimension" (1968) https://www.panshin.com/critics/Dimension/hdcontents.html#Contents https://www.panshin.com/critics/Dimension/hdcontents.html#Co...

Balgair 2y ago

I sincerely have no idea if any of your comments in this thread are sarcastic or not. (This comment is also not sarcastic FYI). Generally, I also agree that Heinlein's characters are one dimensional and could benefit from greater character growth, though that was a bit of a hallmark of Golden Age sci-fi.

throwanem 2y ago
"Teenage boy wish fulfillment" is well beneath any reasonable standard of criticism, and I've addressed that with about as much respect as it deserves. There is much worthy of critique in Heinlein, especially in his depiction of women. I've spent about a quarter century off and on both reading and formulating such critiques, much more recently than I've spent meaningful time with his fiction. I've also read what he had to say for himself before he died, and what Mrs. Heinlein - she kept the name - said about him after. If we want to talk about, for example, how the themes of maternal incest and specifically feminine embodiment of weakly superhuman AGI in his later work reflect a degree of senescence and the wish for a supercompetent maternal figure to whom to surrender the burden of responsibility, or if we want to talk about how Heinlein seems to spend an enormous amount of time just generally exploring stuff from female characters' perspectives that an honest modern inquiry would recognize as fumbling badly but earnestly in the direction of something like a contemporary understanding of gender, then we could talk about that. No one wants to, though. You can't use anything like that as a stick to beat people with, so it never gets a look in, and those as here who care nothing for anything of the subject save if it looks serviceable as a weapon claim to be the only ones in the talk who are honest. They don't know the man's work well enough to talk about the years he spent selling stories that absolutely revolve around character development, which exist solely to exemplify it! Of course these are universally dismissed as his 'juveniles' - a few letters shy of 'juvenilia' - because science fiction superfans are all children and so are science fiction superhaters, neither of whom knows how to respond in any way better than a tantrum on the rare occasion of being told bluntly it's well past time they grew up. But they're the honest ones. Why not? So it goes. It's a conversation I know better than to try to have, especially on Hacker News; if I don't care for how it's proceeding, I've no one but myself to blame.

n4r9 2y ago

Not sure if it will help me saying this, but that's a disappointingly dismissive and avoidant response well below HN standards. I'm very willing to engage with any counter-arguments in good faith. I don't use Twitter (or Mastodon, or BlueSky, or TikTok, or Facebook, or Threads etc...), but I do enjoy discussing sci fi of different periods on Goodreads groups.

throwanem 2y ago
It seems filthy rich of you to claim good faith at this time, but I have recently begun to gather that in some quarters lately, it is considered offensively unreasonable to expect working knowledge of any material as a prerequisite for participating competently in discussion thereof. So though your claim is facially false, I ironically can't fairly consider that it is other than honestly made. Your precepts are in any case your problem. Good luck with it, you Hacker News expert.
- n4r9 2y ago
  I'd be happy to receive any pointers on how I'm wrong - perhaps I've misinterpreted what I've read, or there are characters in the rest of his work that defy my stance.
  - throwanem 2y ago
    > I'd be happy to receive any pointers on how I'm wrong - perhaps I've misinterpreted what I've read, or there are characters in the rest of his work that defy my stance. If you meant that honestly, you would already have found ample directions for further research, easily enough not to need asking. Everything you claim to want lies just a Google search away, on any of the various and I should hope fairly easily identifiable search terms I have mentioned. "It is not my job to educate you." Or, rather, it would still not be my job even if to learn were what you really want here. You don't, of course. That's why you haven't bothered so much as trying a few searches that might turn up something you would have to pretend to have read. Much easier to try to make me look emotionally unstable - 'defy?' Really. - because you can't actually answer anything I've said and you know it. Good luck with that, too.

n4r9 2y ago

I've now gone through two well-known pieces of critical analysis of Heinlein's work, and found that they broadly (and in places exactly) agree with my initial sentiment. Far from "feminist twitter", they are written by serious science fiction critics during Heinlein's lifetime. Below are some quoations and references. I have yet to find compelling evidence to the contrary in my research. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Heinlein's male characters may be divided into two categories: the competent and the incompetent. The incompetents are of little use in the practical world. They function mainly as caricatures for purposes of contrast, satire, and humor, and include such types as the spoiled brat, the jellyfish father, the pompous blowhard, and the bungling meddler. The competent male characters are divided into two types: the stock competent and the Heinlein hero. > There are a goodly share of failures due to Heinlein's discomfort, and his subsequent exclusion of emotions and arm's-length distancing of the intimate. > The Heinlein heroine ... stands as a—pardon the expression—male chauvinist tribute to the hero, implying that women—even such as the heroine—enjoy being dominated. ... Heinlein himself could not break away from his own emotional attachment to the obedient female. Ronald Sarti. “Variations on a Theme: Human Sexuality in the Work of Robert A. Heinlein.” (1978) https://www.enotes.com/topics/robert-heinlein-61736/criticism/heinlein-robert/criticism/ronald-sarti-essay-date-1978 https://www.enotes.com/topics/robert-heinlein-61736/criticis... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress is totally a story of process rather than character. Heinlein has always been more interested in how machines and societies work than in why people act, and this is probably more true of this novel than any of his others. And it is the center of what is wrong with it as a story ... Heinlein has always had a weakness for forcing emotion, possibly because his characters themselves are unemotional. When Heinlein wants us to approve a character or a position, or to feel moved, instead of giving us a natural emotional reason growing out of the story or, alternatively, underplaying, he is all too likely to try to find a button in us to push. > Heinlein's concern with his religion [in Stranger In A Strange Land] is so great, unfortunately, that he lets all character development go hang. Mike Smith is lessened by his super powers. ... Jubal Harshaw, too, is lessened by his super powers -- doctor, lawyer, etc.; his multiple training seems a gratuitous gift from Heinlein without reason or explanation. He redeems himself somewhat by his crusty nature, but I find him suspect. He is too pat. Some of the minor characters have life at the beginning of the story and then lose it, overcome by the flood of talk that engulfs the last half of the novel. Which secretary sleeps with Mike his first time out? They are so lacking in definition that it is impossible to tell. Jill Boardman supposedly loves Ben Caxton, but won't sleep with him. She will, however, go off around the country with Mike on a sleep-in basis. Why? I can't say. At any time it would not surprise me for her to unscrew her foot and stick it in her ear -- she is capable of anything. Ben Caxton's motivations are equally unclear. > Basically, Heinlein has used the same general characters in story after story, and has kept these characters limited ones. ... There is one unique and vivid human Heinlein character, but he is a composite of Joe-Jim Gregory, Harriman, Waldo, Lazarus Long, Mr. Kiku and many others, rather than any one individual. I call the composite the Heinlein Individual. ... Outside of this Heinlein Individual, there is usually a small supporting cast of side men in any one book. Their most striking feature is their competence, reflecting that of the Heinlein Individual. Beyond that, however, hardly any attempt is made to individualize them, for, after all, they are no more than supporting characters, and if lead characters are not described, what can be expected for less important players? After this small circle, Heinlein ordinarily relies on caricature, and he has a number of set pieces which he produces as needed. Alexei Panshin. "Heinlein In Dimension" (1968) https://www.panshin.com/critics/Dimension/hdcontents.html#Contents https://www.panshin.com/critics/Dimension/hdcontents.html#Co...